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 Post subject: Re: A beginner's journey
Post #21 Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:19 pm 
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:black: 127, :white: 166, :black: 175
I guess all those moves are completely unnecessary, because the stones are safely connected already and so the moves should only be played if the other player tries to break the connection.


:b27: Double hane H14.
I'm still having trouble seeing quickly when I can safely double hane without creating a double atari cutting point, so I often avoid it. I should play it more often to see when it works and when it doesn't.


Empty Triangle: I already try to avoid it, but sometimes one slips through. Not sure if it's -always- a bad idea to play, but currently I'm trying to not play it when I notice I'm about to put down an empty triangle.

I never even saw P3 as an issue, I thought responding at P2 was enough, but after :w180: that wasn't the case anymore I guess.

Thank you very much for your detailed analysis, Ed!




WiseMouse, thanks for the advice. I already had a couple of problems I couldn't solve or even understand the solution in Graded Go Problems Vol.2 and on a couple of websites.
When I come across one again, I'll make a note and ask here.

I'll also give your scheduling idea a try. I do go problems almost every day, so it should be possible to play a game after that.
Taking a bit more time per move also seems good to avoid some of the obvious mistakes Ed pointed out above ;)

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Post #22 Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:25 am 
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Quote:
:black: 127, :white: 166, :black: 175
I guess all those moves are completely unnecessary, because the stones are safely connected already and so the moves should only be played if the other player tries to break the connection.
Correct.
Quote:
:b27: Double hane H14.
I should play it more often to see when it works and when it doesn't.
Yes.
Quote:
Empty Triangle: Not sure if it's -always- a bad idea to play,
Certainly not always bad; but often is.
Quote:
I never even saw P3 as an issue, I thought responding at P2 was enough.
Nope. If W pushes through on :white: 168, W is unstoppable. Your local shape crumbles. Good to study.


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Post #23 Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:36 am 
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EdLee wrote:
Quote:
I never even saw P3 as an issue, I thought responding at P2 was enough.
Nope. If W pushes through on :white: 168, W is unstoppable. Your local shape crumbles. Good to study.

I always felt in situations like this P3, if I have Q3 after :black: 115, it's safe. Kind of like a net, that's why I never played P3. But it seems like I'm very much mistaken on that one. I'll absolutely look into that and try to spot it in my future games.

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Post #24 Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:21 am 
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The problem was :black: 111. That was your last chance to fix P3.
( There are earlier local mistakes, but :black: 111 was the last chance. )
W could immediately push at P3 on :white: 112 and your local shape collapses.

Related foundation shapes: toothpaste, SmallGaps

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 Post subject: Re: A beginner's journey
Post #25 Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:40 am 
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It's been one month since my last progress update, so here I am. I didn't have a lot of time to dedicate to Go for the past two weeks, so I didn't post any games, but I'll get back to it.

What went well:
-did a lot of tsumego, both easy and some more difficult ones
-played more 19x19 than I ever did. I got a bunch of daily games going for almost two weeks
-bought the first 5 LevelUP! books after I read several recommendations for them and I wasn't disappointed. Already finished 1+2

What didn't go so well:
-Graded Go Problems Vol2 is more difficult than expected at my level. I'm about 50 problems from finishing it, but it's taking some time
-My nervousness issue isn't going away, but it might be getting better. more on that below
-I'm having trouble working with non-problem books, also more on that below

When playing live 19x19 games I'm trying to rotate through the different servers. But I'm actually having some trouble finding games outside of KGS and IGS.
Correspondence on OGS and DGS works fine, but I haven't been able to find a game on Fox, Tygem or Wbaduk and getting a live game on OGS also takes much longer than on KGS/IGS, so I'm mostly sticking to those for now.

My rank is still low and fluctuating, but going up in general. According to the various servers I'm somewhere between 24k and 17k, which seems about right. If I was playing on just one server I'd probably be much more focused on that one rank.


On being nervous while playing:
I've basically forced myself to play one 19x19 game every day (until I got really busy) which was very interesting. I think I played 15 this month. I'm not 100% sure my anxiety is getting better with each game, but it might. Still, it's uncomfortable to play and if I don't find a way to solve the issue, that might become a problem. After all, it's a hobby and should be fun and enjoyable. But right now I can barely focus on playing a (relaxing, ha!) game of Go, because I have to pay attention to my breathing and overall tension.
I can't really explain it. I don't have the problem in correspondence games and I don't have it vs. the computer. Against AI, Leela for example, I play calmly and I'd love to be this calm vs. another human player.
I kind of know the issue from computer/video games. I've played competitive Street Fighter for a while and did endgame raiding and PvP in a couple of MMORPGs plus some other online/vs. games. There I also was hesitant to engage in activities with or vs. other players and experienced some nervousness when actually playing vs. strangers, which always seemed like a disproportional reaction.
But when playing Go, the effect is much, much stronger, which seems super strange because Go should be more relaxing ;)
It doesn't matter if my opponent is way stronger, the same level or much weaker. Even if I'm winning by a huge, huge lead I'm sitting there, shaking.
For now I can continue to experiment with different methods to calm myself down, but if it persists, it's just too stressful to keep doing it.


Books:
While I do have a bunch of books on my shelf (way too many for my level), I mostly just do the tsumego ones for now. But I'd also like to get at least a bit more of a grasp on the overall concepts with easy beginner books like Opening Theory Made Easy or The Second Book of Go. But I'm not really able to work well through them. Just reading casually doesn't seem to do much. I understand the concepts (roughly) while reading, but when playing a game, I don't remember anything. The other extreme would probably be to really study every concept the books explain, go through the examples on a real goban and try out one new concept at a time in live games until it sticks. Unfortunately it seems I'm a slow learner and I'm still struggling with the early chapters of Opening Theory made easy...at this rate it'll take me many many months to get through just this one small book. So my rate of improvement seems a bit low.
The other problem is being able to judge if a book is appropriate for my level. There are a bunch of different lists for recommended levels online but they vary heavily and also often differ even from the book itself.
Or should I just re-read books like Opening Theory Made Easy again and again until it somehow sticks?
Right now I'm thinking I should just play more and do tsumego, which probably makes sense.

But this is also a general problem. I often get advice for situations in games, there are often helpful links or I find something myself, but it just seems too much to remember. It makes sense when reading an article about a topic but there's just so much of it, I really don't know if I'm supposed to remember everything instantly or work through it diligently. At this point it feels like I can barely remember the 3-3 invasion and that I shouldn't make an empty triangle.



Rate of Improvement:
I keep reading about most players just blasting through the early kyu levels, but I'm not really seeing that effect at about 4 months in. Considering some extremely tenacious players have managed to reach 1d in 12 months, I kind of feel like I'm at the opposite end.
I'm pretty sure the reason is the lack of games played, which brings me back to the issue of being too nervous to be able to just sit down and play a game every day. But I still do at least an hour of go-related studying every day, mostly go problems of varying difficulty.


Well, that's it for me for right now. I hope I'm not sounding like a broken record at this point.
Even if it might not sound like it, I really do enjoy Go a lot and I truly want to improve, because even at my level it's really great to be able to make more sense of the board and see things I couldn't a few weeks ago.

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 Post subject: Re: A beginner's journey
Post #26 Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 4:02 am 
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MysteryFTG wrote:

About rank:

My rank is still low and fluctuating, but going up in general. According to the various servers I'm somewhere between 24k and 17k, which seems about right. If I was playing on just one server I'd probably be much more focused on that one rank. So my rate of improvement seems a bit low. I keep reading about most players just blasting through the early kyu levels, but I'm not really seeing that effect at about 4 months in. Considering some extremely tenacious players have managed to reach 1d in 12 months, I kind of feel like I'm at the opposite end

About anxiety

Still, it's uncomfortable to play and if I don't find a way to solve the issue (of anxiety), that might become a problem. (...)
For now I can continue to experiment with different methods to calm myself down, but if it persists, it's just too stressful to keep doing it.

About advice
I often get advice for situations in games, there are often helpful links or I find something myself, but it just seems too much to remember.


Many here, including me, have similar experiences and feelings, regardless of our rank and improvement rate. Your anxiety comes from the fear that your result will not live up to your expectation of improving at a certain rate. This expectation is fueled by two things: you devote a lot of time to study (and play); and you see others improve fast. You don't improve as fast as you think you deserve and this frustrates you.

There are a number of things you can do about it:

1) If your winning percentage is your major way to get positive feedback, you should aim to directly impact it, instead of relying on the indirect impact of study. I've written about this here: https://senseis.xmp.net/?DieterVerhofstadt%2FBasicLawsOfGamesmanship. I believe this will take away a lot of the anxiety too, since it is a program with very clear and simple tasks to perform and which I believe will have a big impact on your results. And it also addresses your third issue of information overload, by progressively focussing on the one single thing that will improve your results next.

2) You can also try to get your positive feedback in another way: by finding a teacher. If you're susceptible to pats on the back from a teacher, you will know you improve (or not) regardless of results. And playing a teacher will be safe, not leading to anxiety.

3) Last but not least, you can try and convert your anxiety into a source of power. Anxiety is a negative way to channel emotion. You must find out which emotions lead to this anxiety and instead of ignoring them, tap into this resource. This way, you can turn "fear of losing" into "desire to win". You can turn "fear of being ridiculed by an anonymous psychopath" into "a vow to maintain a strong character even in the face of trolls". Here you need a psychologist more than a go teacher but often you can already do the shrink job yourself. The story telling of "I'm not worth it" can hide emotional traumas of long ago. What are they? This is something only you know. From the answer, you can start a more positive journey, in life and in go. I've been there and in many respects still am underway.

Good luck.

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 Post subject: Re: A beginner's journey
Post #27 Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:00 am 
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Knotwilg wrote:
MysteryFTG wrote:

About anxiety

Still, it's uncomfortable to play and if I don't find a way to solve the issue (of anxiety), that might become a problem. (...)
For now I can continue to experiment with different methods to calm myself down, but if it persists, it's just too stressful to keep doing it.



3) Last but not least, you can try and convert your anxiety into a source of power. Anxiety is a negative way to channel emotion. You must find out which emotions lead to this anxiety and instead of ignoring them, tap into this resource. This way, you can turn "fear of losing" into "desire to win". You can turn "fear of being ridiculed by an anonymous psychopath" into "a vow to maintain a strong character even in the face of trolls". Here you need a psychologist more than a go teacher but often you can already do the shrink job yourself. The story telling of "I'm not worth it" can hide emotional traumas of long ago. What are they? This is something only you know. From the answer, you can start a more positive journey, in life and in go. I've been there and in many respects still am underway.

Good luck.


Our drama coach in high school was quite good, having been an assistant director on Broadway. She told us it was a problem if we did not feel stage fright, because it was a source of energy that we could harness for our performance. :) She also had a trick in such cases of planting her left leg firmly on the stage. That gave a physical sense of strength. :) In general, as Knotwilg says, negative emotions can be a source of power. Go is not a very physical activity, and slamming down the stones does not necessarily make for good play. ;) However, Laura Huxley, in her book, You are Not the Target, talks about using negative emotional energy for physical exercise. In social situations, where you do not want to be noticed particularly, she recommends isotonic exercises, tensing muscles without movement for 10 sec. or so, and then relaxing those muscles for another 10 sec. Like planting your foot firmly on the ground, this is a way of harnessing negative emotional energy. :)

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 Post subject: Re: A beginner's journey
Post #28 Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:53 am 
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Hey Mystery,

As one of the players who shot from beginner to mid single digit kyu in six months, I studied and played a lot. I was in my senior year of high school and I had the time to play an average of five games a day with twenty-five-minute main time. I also read a couple of books a week and did many problems. There is some talent that goes into the speed one learns things, but you are correct that playing more will speed you along.


As a suggestion to game anxiety, consider joining the open study room. https://openstudyroom.org/

They have a lot of active players in the DDK range, and it could give you a chance to play games with soon to be friends instead of random internet strangers. Be sure to join the discord as well, I'm often in general or tsumego channel.

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 Post subject: Re: A beginner's journey
Post #29 Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:11 am 
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Thanks everyone for your replies!

Knotwilg:
Interesting ideas, I'll try to test everything out you've suggested.
I'm trying to have many ways of tracking my progress and giving myself a goal for live games that is not depending on winning. For live games I play, I'm trying to have a goal, or goals, that I can complete and while I do track my winning percentage, I don't pay that much attention to it, because there are a lot of other things such as number of tsumego solved, time needed to re-solve easy tsumego books etc. This is giving me constant feedback on my progress.
But from your link, I'll try to follow especially 1+4.

I'll absolutely try to work on my anxiety, find out what causes it and hopefully turn it into a strength. With my reaction to a live online game being this unreasonably strong, I'm sure it's something I should work on.



Bill:
I'm actually doing pretty much the exact exercise you've mentioned when playing. Sometimes more, sometimes less, depending on my stress level. If I don't so it, I can feel me getting more and more nervous until the point where I'm physically shaking. I'm not "actually" nervous, I know that there's no point or reason in being nervous, but it's kind of an automatic reaction.



WiseMouse:
I guess you've spent at least 4-5 hours a day on Go in that time? Right now I'm maybe at 1 hour, so if I consider that, I guess my speed isn't that slow. To reach the amount of study/game time you had, I would need 2-3 years at my current pace, which puts my current progress into perspective.

I already joined openstudyroom a while ago, but I haven't used it yet, because I'm not quite sure how to utilize it properly. Do I just request games from random people?



I wish some of my friends were playing Go, but I've not been successful in getting anyone interested in the game. The internet is great, but I'd also love to be able to talk about and play Go in person more. A weekly meeting about a one hour drive away from here is all I could find. I'll try and go there when I've got a bit of free time on my hands.

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 Post subject: Re: A beginner's journey
Post #30 Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:40 am 
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MysteryFTG wrote:
Thanks everyone for your replies!
I already joined openstudyroom a while ago, but I haven't used it yet, because I'm not quite sure how to utilize it properly. Do I just request games from random people?


Yep, just click on the game request channel and say. 'Any one want a game?' If you want you can further specify, ddk league for example.

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 Post subject: Re: A beginner's journey
Post #31 Posted: Fri May 25, 2018 10:42 pm 
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Time for another update, with a game this time ;)

Whenever I do my monthly post in this topic I'm surprised that a month has already passed and that I neglected to post any of my promised weekly progress games. Good job!

So, what happened this month? I decided to not play any live games this month, which is kind of the opposite of what I originally wanted to do.
Instead I finished the first five Level Up! books and am halfway through the (much more difficult?) Review 1 book. I also sat down and started actively working with the Opening Theory Made Easy and Second Book of Go books. I continued my 2x10 correspondence games and finished a couple as well, so it's not like I'm not playing at all, but since correspondence is slow, I just played about half a dozen games.

The LevelUp! books are really great, I guess I did about 1800+ tsumego within the past 4 weeks.

Now here's something interesting: I haven't really changed anything at all, but I played a live game yesterday and my anxiety was basically gone. I don't know if this was a fluke, if it'll return or what happened, but for this one game I could just focus on playing go and it was great! It might have been the break I took, combined with me reading the Opening Theory book? Don't get me wrong, I still lost horribly because I'm still ranked too high and made tons of mistakes, but I didn't feel as lost as I did in previous live games.
I will definitely try another live game and see how I'm doing. I still have no explanation for this change, but I'll keep an eye on it. If it's just gone, that would be wonderful.

Here's that game I was talking about. I already reviewed it myself, but getting some input from higher level players will surely give me more insight:

Notes:
-I'm happy that blacks invasion on the left side didn't work out.
-I wish I could've done something with my stones in the middle. Can't figure out if I abandoned them too early after they got disconnected before.


A couple of random questions:
1) Should I, at my level, use Go Review Partner with Leela to look at my games? Or is it unlikely that I can take anything valuable away from that?
2) I haven't won a single game on OGS yet, but my rank keeps going up from time to time, due to timeout "wins". Is there any way to make these games not count towards my rating?
3) Memorizing pro games at my level: Yay or nay?

Thanks everyone for helping me out and sorry for the lack of updates, but if my anxiety issues are in fact better now (will find out soon), I'll have more material to post for sure :)


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Post #32 Posted: Sat May 26, 2018 4:21 am 
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Hi FTG,
Quote:
Should I... use... Leela to look at my games?
Bots are now at near-pro, pro-, and beyond top human levels.

Yes -- you gleam whatever valuable lessons from them;
for parts you don't understand, you can ask humans.
( If it's a move or sequence that's beyond top human level,
well, tough. :mrgreen: )
If you find out you understand absolutely 0% of the bot's analysis, that's OK, too. :)

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Post #33 Posted: Sat May 26, 2018 4:54 am 
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 Post subject: Re: A beginner's journey
Post #34 Posted: Sat May 26, 2018 10:03 pm 
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Hello Ed, thank you very much for your detailed analysis, it's been very helpful.

:w28: is very interesting for me, I never expected to be able to cut but still take a bit of the corner.

:w32: is something I just play automatically. Your explanation has been really helpful in making me understand what that move actually is supposed to be used for.

It seems I underestimate the value of a 3-3 invasion. I checked with leela, also in other games, and it's coming up over and over.

You mentioned shape problems at :w26: and :w50: but I have trouble imagining the issued with these moves, especially :w50: seems like a good move to me, so I might have some wrong concepts in my head. Any reading material to fix that?

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Post #35 Posted: Sat May 26, 2018 11:54 pm 
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Hi FTG,

Good question. "Historically," ( i.e. pre-2015, before AlphaGo ) joseki books and pro games were good sources. The quality of shapes lies in a continuum -- from one extreme (e.g. a game-winning sequence) to another (e.g. disastrous collapse, game over). My experience was a very "slow brew" with notes from good review sessions. But some people pick up the materials much faster.

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