It is currently Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:31 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 34 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Re: MikeKyle Analyses Komoku, high approach, low 1 space pin
Post #21 Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 1:03 am 
Dies in gote

Posts: 58
Liked others: 2
Was liked: 10
Rank: EGF 4k
KGS: MKyle
Uberdude wrote:
says it's good for white to then live in the corner

I'd be really interested to query Elf specifically on some of these sequences when I got the chance, but I gave it a fair amount of time for each move in that previous continuation sequence - it seems Elf likes to threaten to live but then thinks its a better idea to strengthen the floaty outside group (in sente as black needs to deal with the corner)

Quote:
all players are fallible, superhuman bots included. :) We need to maintain a healthy skepticism about their evaluations, even while recognizing that they are better than ours.

I agree absolutely.
I'm also very guilty of forgetting this attitude at times though. Sometimes I treat anyone 2 grades stronger than me as an oracle of absolute truths!

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: MikeKyle Analyses Komoku, high approach, low 1 space pin
Post #22 Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 3:49 am 
Dies in gote

Posts: 58
Liked others: 2
Was liked: 10
Rank: EGF 4k
KGS: MKyle
Bill Spight wrote:
From a scientific point of view, one problem with current bot evaluations is that they do not come with an error estimate.


Yes - Absolutely, this is problematic. Also though I wonder if any metric of confidence might end up being a bit misleading. Confidence is pretty hard to come by when faced with this kind of complexity. Variance of reading seems like a fuzzy metric.

I guess our best proxy to confidence is the degree to which the win% jumps around. This would tell us that Elf is not confident in these branches

Gomoto wrote:
I love go, finest game discovered yet.

Me too. And your other post is a good reason to:
The depth and complexity is such that we can get the illusion of a great breakthrough, but there is never actually an answer.

Top
 Profile  
 
Online
 Post subject: Re: MikeKyle Analyses Komoku, high approach, low 1 space pin
Post #23 Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 4:17 am 
Judan

Posts: 7844
Liked others: 2165
Was liked: 2765
MikeKyle wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
From a scientific point of view, one problem with current bot evaluations is that they do not come with an error estimate.


Yes - Absolutely, this is problematic. Also though I wonder if any metric of confidence might end up being a bit misleading. Confidence is pretty hard to come by when faced with this kind of complexity. Variance of reading seems like a fuzzy metric.

I guess our best proxy to confidence is the degree to which the win% jumps around. This would tell us that Elf is not confident in these branches


Actually, the researchers could generate error estimates for evaluations if they wanted to. But the accuracy of evaluation is not their concern. Beating other bots is. So evaluations, which make up only part of the strength of bots, are not tested, except indirectly, through play against other bots or self play.

Edit: This is not by accident. It turns out that improving some aspects of a bot can make it perform worse overall. Strong bots are complex. :)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: MikeKyle Analyses Komoku, high approach, low 1 space pin
Post #24 Posted: Fri May 18, 2018 9:45 am 
Dies in gote

Posts: 58
Liked others: 2
Was liked: 10
Rank: EGF 4k
KGS: MKyle
So one of the sources of confusion from Elf might have been a ladder that pops up in some of Elf's continuations. The ladder weakness is a pretty big, pretty obvious reason to give these reads a pinch of salt. Variation with a ladder missread here, but also there's a fun tesuji. Elf abandons the tesuji after a little bit of further reading but I thought it looked interesting.



In summary I think to play the original kosumi you need to be prepared to give away a large corner to take the outside. It seems that you can be pretty sure of this result if you choose to block at the 3-2 point choice. If you choose the other 3-2 point then you must be prepared to take the corner and fight in the centre.


Attachments:
Elf curious joseki reading 2018-05-18.sgf [335 Bytes]
Downloaded 138 times
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: MikeKyle Analyses Komoku, high approach, low 1 space pin
Post #25 Posted: Fri May 18, 2018 2:13 pm 
Dies in gote

Posts: 58
Liked others: 2
Was liked: 10
Rank: EGF 4k
KGS: MKyle
To look at the other major Elf patern a little..

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B The "Usual" joseki here
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ . . . 5 . 6 . 8 . |
$$ . . . . 7 1 4 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------[/go]


What Elf likes next seems to be highly dependant on the whole board.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Tenuki is possible
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . 4 . 5 . 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . 6 X 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Here Elf favours tenuki. 'a' is the best local follow up, but approaching is bigger (about 2% difference.) I supose that there isn't a very pleasing extension across the bottom without leaving a strange spacing somewhere(?)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Master and Elf agree
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 O 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 . 5 . 4 . . 8 , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . a . b . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


In this case Master and Elf agree again. 8 is just about a certainty. In this case, it seems to me that settling this group is too important. 'a' is Elf's second favourite again, but it's about 5% behind. White 'a' is followed by black 8, white 'b'.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: MikeKyle Analyses Komoku, high approach, low 1 space pin
Post #26 Posted: Sun May 27, 2018 2:33 pm 
Dies in gote

Posts: 58
Liked others: 2
Was liked: 10
Rank: EGF 4k
KGS: MKyle
I want to start looking at human joseki and different board positions and the different choices involved but it's been tough to find time. In the meantime, I have some more to add to my personal stream of consciousness about this Ai knight's move main line.

I'm at the 'Not the London open' tournament this weekend. Pavol Lisy 3p is here as the tournament pro and Uberdude is at the same venue for the UK Challengers'League.

In my second round game I got to try out my planned opening in an effort to induce this new pattern and see what people try..
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B MKyle as black, NTLO round 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . 7 . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White butted but then descended below 8, letting me harass the eye space and get a nice result (before making much more serious errors myself in the rest of the game.) But I was lucky enough to get the game reviewed by Pavol who suggested an interesting line..

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Pavol's line
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O . . . |
$$ . . . X 2 3 9 . . |
$$ . . . . 1 X O 8 . |
$$ . . . . 5 4 6 7 . |
$$ . . . . . . . 0 . |
$$ ----------------[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 ..15 at 7, 16 at 11
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O . 8 . |
$$ . . . X X O O . . |
$$ . . . . O X O X 2 |
$$ . . . . O X X O 1 |
$$ . . . . 7 3 . X 4 |
$$ ----------------[/go]


In a separate conversation, Uberdude suggested that maybe Elf and AG are comfortable with this because of something like...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm19 AI is happy?
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . 4 . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O . X . |
$$ . . . X X O O 2 . |
$$ . . 5 . O X O X X |
$$ . . . . O X X 3 X |
$$ . . . . O O 1 X X |
$$ ----------------[/go]


(this is my memory of the discussion, please attribute any kyu level errors to my tired kyu brain)
It seems black must be happy to get this weird thin looking formation if black is going to play the knight's move at the start.

I'm quite interested to ask the Elf when I'm back home.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: MikeKyle Analyses Komoku, high approach, low 1 space pin
Post #27 Posted: Sun May 27, 2018 4:18 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 331
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 78
Rank: KGS 2k
GD Posts: 100
KGS: Tryss
I think white will play like this instead :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm19
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O . X . |
$$ . . . X X O O 1 2 |
$$ . . . . O X O X X |
$$ . . . . O X X . X |
$$ . . . . O O 3 X X |
$$ ----------------[/go]


And it's worse for black (there's a severe weakness at S6 )

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: MikeKyle Analyses Komoku, high approach, low 1 space pin
Post #28 Posted: Mon May 28, 2018 12:11 am 
Dies in gote

Posts: 58
Liked others: 2
Was liked: 10
Rank: EGF 4k
KGS: MKyle
Ah yes. Thanks. I thought there was something fishy around my 19 & 20.

Surely black can't try to steal sente and leave this hanami ko?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm19 fun for white
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . 4 . 6 5 8 |
$$ . . . . . O 7 X . |
$$ . . . X X O O 1 2 |
$$ . . . . O X O X X |
$$ . . . . O X X . X |
$$ . . . . O O 3 X X |
$$ ----------------[/go]


And if black patches up with 22 white can either break through the gap or even just play along the bottom and let black take gote if he wants some weird thin influence.

Interested to see if this upsets Elf again. I have more confidence in master, but we don't get to ask too many follow up questions.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: MikeKyle Analyses Komoku, high approach, low 1 space pin
Post #29 Posted: Mon May 28, 2018 3:32 pm 
Dies in gote

Posts: 58
Liked others: 2
Was liked: 10
Rank: EGF 4k
KGS: MKyle
Elf is on it.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Pavol's line
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O . . . |
$$ . . . X 2 . . . . |
$$ . . . . 1 X O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------[/go]


1 seems to be kind of a trick play, and 2 is getting well and trully tricked. Black looses about 30% win rate with 2 for mainly the reasons we were looking at (or also white can block the other way, live by kicking the pincer stone and then a little bit later hastle the lower side group)

Elf likes:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Elf's line
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O . . . |
$$ . . . X . 2 . . . |
$$ . . . . 1 X O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm3 Elf's line
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . b 6 . . . . |
$$ . . . 5 4 O 8 . . |
$$ . . a X 1 X 2 7 . |
$$ . . . . O X O . . |
$$ . . . . . 3 . 9 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------[/go]


Then a is the next local move for black, or b for white, but Elf sugests that neither is super urgent.


This post by MikeKyle was liked by: Bill Spight
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: MikeKyle Analyses Komoku, high approach, low 1 space pin
Post #30 Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:55 am 
Dies in gote

Posts: 58
Liked others: 2
Was liked: 10
Rank: EGF 4k
KGS: MKyle
John Fairbairn wrote:
One characteristic of the commonest line in this joseki, which involves a lot of very close contact, is that it offers several ataris that amateurs love to play but pros avoid.


I'm confident that John was talking about this human joseki:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . 6 5 7 . |
$$ . . . . . O 4 0 . |
$$ . . . . . 3 2 . . |
$$ . . . . . X 1 8 . |
$$ . . . . . . 9 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 4 X 2 . |
$$ . . . . 3 X O O . |
$$ . . . . . O X X . |
$$ . . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . 1 X O X . |
$$ . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------[/go]


I've been having fun with go review partner and I used it to look at Elf's opinion of this sequence in 75 9p vs 9p games containing this patern (method briefly explained in the inroducing grp thread. I know that 9p vs 9p is not an exact 1-1 match to quality games but it seemed a reasonable way to get a good number of games)

It actually surprised me a little to see that Elf wanted to play this patern on at least one ocasion in my analysis. I think if Elf wrote a joseki book then this patern would be listed as a special case. Elf likes it for example in this game:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Lee Sedol vs Pak Cheong-sang
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . X O . . . . O . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . O . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . . . . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . X X O O X . . |
$$ | . O X X X O . . . . . . X O X X O O . |
$$ | . X . . X . . . . . . . X O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White ignores the pincer for a long time in this game, according to Elf, white should have played the 3-3 point sooner, but as soon as he does, the following play is exactly as Elf would have played it on both sides.

However in general, Elf likes other sequences..

First of all - the hane after the 3-3 (move 2 above.) Elf really likes that knights move! It prefers the knights move to the hane in around 50 of the 75 board positions in which the 9d's chose the hane (Elf's opinion on the remaining 25ish moves were split - not all for the hane.) It seems to most commonly be around a 4-5% mistake.

There's a little bit of noise at move 4 too. Elf mainly agrees with the popular human move, but on a couple of occasions looks at other moves - for example here:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Elf plays on from Cho Chikun vs Ishida Yoshio
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . c d 9 . b e |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 7 4 1 a . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . X 6 5 X O 2 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . 0 . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think Elf plays 1 as black here in order to take sente for the open corner. This patern appears in 'The 21st century dictionary of basic Joseki' on a diagram with the words "foiling the trick move" (1 is the trick move) except that according to the dictionary, black must play a and finish in gote because leaving white the ko is too good. Elf thinks that black can now tenuki and take the final corner and then (after making an outside exchange) white will turn in order to set up the ko for later. (the ko is white c, black d and then throw in at e to set up a 2 stage ko. If white started it now I think black is very happy to take 3 large points while white takes the stones.)

Top
 Profile  
 
Online
 Post subject: Re: MikeKyle Analyses Komoku, high approach, low 1 space pin
Post #31 Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 10:33 am 
Judan

Posts: 5359
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 299
Was liked: 2823
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
Did you notice if Elf often wanted to play 12 at 14 instead in the joseki? I saw that once whilst reviewing. That's usually regarded as a mistake as it gives white s2 in sente which is pretty huge yose (or s9 in sente can help with an invasion on that side), but the plus is white doesn't get the p6 atari for free. The joseki usually regards that as less valuable than s2 in sente (as you can still p5 cut or n6 shape point as future moyo border / shape point), but in that case Elf disagreed.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: MikeKyle Analyses Komoku, high approach, low 1 space pin
Post #32 Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 5:44 am 
Dies in gote

Posts: 58
Liked others: 2
Was liked: 10
Rank: EGF 4k
KGS: MKyle
Uberdude wrote:
Did you notice if Elf often wanted to play 12 at 14 instead in the joseki?


Yes! I don't have smartgo and my little review database to hand, but I think Elf thought that this was a better idea in about 3/4 (edit: about 95%) of the pro game board positions:
(I'd be interested to see if I can identify what influences this)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 Elf misses a,b exchange
$$ . . . . . . . d . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 2 X a . |
$$ . . . . b X O O . |
$$ . . . . . O X X . |
$$ . . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . 1 X O X . |
$$ . . . . . . O c . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------[/go]


This reminds me of the way Ai seem to like to capture laddered stones with a big loose centre oriented move regardless of the aji. Maybe its okay to play this way if you back every move with 10k playouts. Kageyama would be furious!

To me it seems like 'c' becomes a pretty huge double sente move, but white doesn't seem to take it right away. I think white in the human variation looks thick enough that humans wouldn't like to play too near except for that shape point maybe, but since the wall doesn't quite have 2 eyes I would think that Ai might want to deny it getting the turn in sente in order to slightly threaten the wall at some point?

I actually think the really interesting stuff happens at move 6, I just haven't got my head around all the variations yet!


Last edited by MikeKyle on Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: MikeKyle Analyses Komoku, high approach, low 1 space pin
Post #33 Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:22 pm 
Dies in gote

Posts: 58
Liked others: 2
Was liked: 10
Rank: EGF 4k
KGS: MKyle
I'm thinking about this wrong. Elf seems to think that you can give white the sente turn at the 2-2 point and still not regard it as particularly thick.

These are the next local moves that appear in quite a few of Elf's follow up sequences:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Elf sees no thickness
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X X . . |
$$ . . 4 a . X O O . |
$$ . b 3 2 . O X X . |
$$ . . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . 1 . O X O X . |
$$ . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------[/go]


Black follows up with a or b, sometimes white seems to make the 2-2 exchange about now (I'm still surprised it's not sooner.)

As a curious (to me) tangent, I spotted that If white makes the 2-2 exchange and black has a isolated 4-4 stone in the corner where his thickness is pointing Elf likes to make this second line approach:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Elf does respect some thickness
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . X X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . . X O X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


From what I can tell, humans use this approach in pretty special circumstances, often much later in a game's development.
(This is in follow up sequences so the reading applied to each move isn't too great. Maybe take with a pinch of salt)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: MikeKyle Analyses Komoku, high approach, low 1 space pin
Post #34 Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 2:57 pm 
Dies in gote

Posts: 58
Liked others: 2
Was liked: 10
Rank: EGF 4k
KGS: MKyle
MikeKyle wrote:
I actually think the really interesting stuff happens at move 6, I just haven't got my head around all the variations yet!



So.. from here:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . a O c . |
$$ . . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . . X O b . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------[/go]


Humans play a about 2/3 of the time, leading to the familiar patern. Humans occasionally try b or c, to the extent that there are a lot of paterns that have appeared frequently enough that I would call joseki.

Elf likes these rare human paterns starting with b and c.

It thinks that humans are wrong to choose a so frequently, and the more common choice here should be b with paterns like:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Elf's favourite from here
$$ . . . . b . a . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 4 X . . |
$$ . . . . . . O 2 . |
$$ . . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . . X . 1 . |
$$ . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------[/go]


black a, white b is a common follow up

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B when white wants sente
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 2 X 5 . |
$$ . . . . . 4 O 3 . |
$$ . . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . 6 X . 1 . |
$$ . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Lader dependant
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ . . . . . 0 X 6 . |
$$ . . . . . 4 O 3 . |
$$ . . . . . O X 7 . |
$$ . . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . 9 . X O 1 . |
$$ . . . . . 5 2 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------[/go]


Or c with paterns like:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B black could omit the 7, 8 exchange
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . 2 O 1 . |
$$ . . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . 6 . O X 3 . |
$$ . . 7 . 4 X O . . |
$$ . . . . 8 5 9 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------[/go]


These all seem to be very rare human paterns, but Elf likes them more than the main patern.

Incidentally in the main patern, even though Elf doesn't consider white particularly thick, Elf tends to agree with white's move at every step. It seems to me that Elf thinks that approaching and being allowed to settle in sente is good for white in this case, and I'd be interested to test if Elf always feels this way about human joseki where this happens.

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 34 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group