It is currently Mon Mar 18, 2024 10:22 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ] 
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: New 3-3 invasion joseki by ELF
Post #1 Posted: Wed May 23, 2018 2:37 pm 
Gosei

Posts: 1733
Location: Earth
Liked others: 621
Was liked: 310
EDIT: This is not joseki, but a move for special cases and depends heavily on the whole board position

I discovered this joseki today while reviewing with ELF.

The joseki up to move 5 is very rare in my pro database and move 6 is the new joseki move. This looks rather interesting in my opinion. What do you think?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc19
$$ --------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 3 2 4 . . |
$$ . . . . 6 . X O . . |
$$ , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]


For the joseki up to move 5 see also:

Lee Sedol 9p - Park Junghwan 9p, B+Resign (Komi 6.5)
Korean Hwaseong Go Festival special game, 2017-11-09

Ishida Yoshio 9p - Ishida Akira 9p, B+4.5 (Komi 5.5)
36th Japanese NHK Cup, round 2, 1988-08-28


Last edited by Gomoto on Wed May 23, 2018 3:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: New 3-3 invasion joseki by ELF
Post #2 Posted: Wed May 23, 2018 2:39 pm 
Gosei

Posts: 1733
Location: Earth
Liked others: 621
Was liked: 310
This is what ELF thinks:


Attachments:
newjoseki2.jpg
newjoseki2.jpg [ 164.52 KiB | Viewed 10735 times ]
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: New 3-3 invasion joseki by ELF
Post #3 Posted: Wed May 23, 2018 2:47 pm 
Gosei

Posts: 1733
Location: Earth
Liked others: 621
Was liked: 310
I like that white stops following blacks plan here and even reaches out for sente:


Attachments:
newjoseki2continuation1.jpg
newjoseki2continuation1.jpg [ 167.07 KiB | Viewed 10732 times ]
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: New 3-3 invasion joseki by ELF
Post #4 Posted: Wed May 23, 2018 2:50 pm 
Gosei

Posts: 1733
Location: Earth
Liked others: 621
Was liked: 310
This continuation is even better for white:


Attachments:
newjoseki2continuation2.jpg
newjoseki2continuation2.jpg [ 165 KiB | Viewed 10732 times ]
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject:
Post #5 Posted: Wed May 23, 2018 2:56 pm 
Honinbo
User avatar

Posts: 8859
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 349
Was liked: 2076
GD Posts: 312
Hi Gomoto,

Lizzie has a pretty board and stones.

When the current move marker is :bc:, how to interpret the percentages ?
( are they winrates for White, since it's White's turn ? )

Same question for the opposite:
When the current move marker is :wc:, how to interpret the percentages ?

( Wish there's some way they can improve the UI so the % are obvious which color they represent... -- I still haven't used any of these bots yet. :) )

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: New 3-3 invasion joseki by ELF
Post #6 Posted: Wed May 23, 2018 3:19 pm 
Gosei

Posts: 1733
Location: Earth
Liked others: 621
Was liked: 310
This is not your everyday joseki, the new move is only for special cases.

I try to investigate the relation to the whole board situation.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: New 3-3 invasion joseki by ELF
Post #7 Posted: Wed May 23, 2018 3:20 pm 
Gosei

Posts: 1733
Location: Earth
Liked others: 621
Was liked: 310
@EdLee

The percentages show the winning percentage for the player that is going to make the next move.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: New 3-3 invasion joseki by ELF
Post #8 Posted: Wed May 23, 2018 3:31 pm 
Gosei

Posts: 1733
Location: Earth
Liked others: 621
Was liked: 310
Some interesting evaluations by ELF:
Attachment:
eval1.jpg
eval1.jpg [ 163.93 KiB | Viewed 10723 times ]

Attachment:
eval2.jpg
eval2.jpg [ 159.68 KiB | Viewed 10722 times ]

Attachment:
eval3.jpg
eval3.jpg [ 159.97 KiB | Viewed 10722 times ]

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject:
Post #9 Posted: Wed May 23, 2018 4:03 pm 
Honinbo
User avatar

Posts: 8859
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 349
Was liked: 2076
GD Posts: 312
Hi Gomoto,

Thanks.

What are B's and W's winrates before :b1: ? ( 7.5 komi ? 6.5 komi ? Chinese rule ? )

Out of curiosity -- for this board:
Attachment:
IMG_0665.JPG
IMG_0665.JPG [ 177.43 KiB | Viewed 10714 times ]
What was the previous board position ( which W move ) where W dropped below 50% ?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: New 3-3 invasion joseki by ELF
Post #10 Posted: Wed May 23, 2018 4:18 pm 
Gosei

Posts: 1733
Location: Earth
Liked others: 621
Was liked: 310
The hane (move 2) is a very random move for ELF. In the second picture beneath ELF misses the hane in this run on the same board configuration. It still thinks it is good if I force it. (It seems to be worth considering it from time to time but the reading is above my head.)


Attachments:
Ed2.jpg
Ed2.jpg [ 163.11 KiB | Viewed 10711 times ]
ed1.jpg
ed1.jpg [ 163.34 KiB | Viewed 10711 times ]
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: New 3-3 invasion joseki by ELF
Post #11 Posted: Wed May 23, 2018 4:24 pm 
Gosei

Posts: 1589
Liked others: 886
Was liked: 527
Rank: AGA 3k Fox 3d
GD Posts: 61
KGS: dfan
Gomoto wrote:
The percentages show the winning percentage for the player that is going to make the next move.

By the way, for anyone who doesn't like this system, I added an option in lizzie.properties ("win-rate-always-black") that always displays the win rates from Black's point of view. I prefer this because it's easier for me to see what's going on when the win rates on consecutive moves go something like 42-40-39-38-41 rather than 42-60-39-62-41.


This post by dfan was liked by: hyperpape
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject:
Post #12 Posted: Wed May 23, 2018 5:41 pm 
Honinbo
User avatar

Posts: 8859
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 349
Was liked: 2076
GD Posts: 312
Hi Gomoto, thanks.

I meant :b1: in the absolute sense: on an empty board, what are ELF's winrates for B and W ? I seem to recall AZ thought W +50% with 7.5 komi --
I'm curious if ELF also uses 7.5 komi with Chinese rules,
and whether ELF thinks W is ahead before :b1: . Thanks.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject:
Post #13 Posted: Wed May 23, 2018 5:42 pm 
Honinbo
User avatar

Posts: 8859
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 349
Was liked: 2076
GD Posts: 312
Hi Dan, are you the developer of Lizzie ?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: New 3-3 invasion joseki by ELF
Post #14 Posted: Wed May 23, 2018 6:04 pm 
Gosei

Posts: 1589
Liked others: 886
Was liked: 527
Rank: AGA 3k Fox 3d
GD Posts: 61
KGS: dfan
I am not the main developer, but it's open source, so I have contributed a few features.


This post by dfan was liked by: Gomoto
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: New 3-3 invasion joseki by ELF
Post #15 Posted: Wed May 23, 2018 6:19 pm 
Gosei

Posts: 1733
Location: Earth
Liked others: 621
Was liked: 310
ELF empty board:

49,3% (4-4)
47,8% (3-4)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject:
Post #16 Posted: Wed May 23, 2018 11:09 pm 
Honinbo
User avatar

Posts: 8859
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 349
Was liked: 2076
GD Posts: 312
Gomoto, Thanks. So ELF thinks W slightly ahead.

Dan, Congrats and thanks.

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group