Life In 19x19
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This is just a bad move
https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=16061
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Author:  Gomoto [ Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: This is just a bad move

Dang Yifei 9p - Chen Yaoye 9p, B+3.5 (Komi 7.5)
20th Chinese League A, round 3, 2018-03-30


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . 6 . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . O 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Author:  Gomoto [ Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: This is just a bad move

(In my pro games database (>2000 games for 2018) these are the only 8 games of 2018 that show up for the discussed position. Nobody connected at a in these games. For the size of empty quadrant see first post of thread.)

Author:  Gomoto [ Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: This is just a bad move

Quote:
John Fairbairn: Well, I've got about 40 this year alone (and many for 2017). The surrounding position obviously matters, so if we just search on the first 20 moves to eliminate much of that noise, there are still almost 20 - and top players such as Yi Se-tol and Jiang Weijie have played it, some within the last fortnight.


Care to share a game or two?

Or anybody else who points me to a game from 2018?

I would really like to explore the choice.

Author:  Gomoto [ Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: This is just a bad move

Jiang Weijie, 9p - Xu Jiayang, 7p, W+R (Komi 7.5)
20th Chinese League A, round 13, 2018-08-15

In this case connecting is related to the marked stone.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . , . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The marked stone is questionable by the way.
Probably because black has to play the ugly connecting move as follow up ;-)

Author:  John Fairbairn [ Wed Sep 12, 2018 10:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: This is just a bad move

Quote:
(In my pro games database (>2000 games for 2018) these are the only 8 games of 2018 that show up for the discussed position. Nobody connected at a in these games. For the size of empty quadrant see first post of thread.)


Ah, OK. There was nothing in your post to indicate you were insisting on an 11x11 quadrant and I used my usual 9x9. That limits the hits drastically, even on my almost 4,000 2018 games. But for the AI era you may wish to look at Cho Han-seung vs Tao Xinran 2016-07-16 and Ichiriki Ryo vs Uchida Shuhei 2018-04-26 as the spacings there are very large. Takao Shinji vs Kono Rin 2014-09-11 is pre-AI but there is an even wider gap on the side. In all three cases the quality of the players concerned would make me hesitate about saying "bad move."

Also, although I glibly talk about "AI era", as far as I can see no AI has played the crawl (as opposed to the connection) in an 11x11 quadrant (on a 10x10 quadrant, I have only one example: AQ vs Baduki, but only as late as move 65, in August). The earlies example I have of the crawl for both 10x10 and 11x11 by a human is 2018-03 as above from China (move 26 by Chen Yaoye). So is this a purely human idea, an AI-influenced human idea, or an AI idea I have missed?

Author:  Gomoto [ Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: This is just a bad move

Thanks! Will have a look at the games.

Author:  Gomoto [ Sat Sep 15, 2018 11:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: This is just a bad move

Cho Han-seung 9d - Tao Xinran 6d, W+Resign (Komi 6.5)
21st Samsung Cup, Integrated Preliminary, Round 2, 2016-07-16

Attachments:
chotao.jpg
chotao.jpg [ 170.88 KiB | Viewed 621 times ]

Author:  Gomoto [ Sat Sep 15, 2018 11:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: This is just a bad move

Ichiriki Ryo vs Uchida Shuhei 2018-04-26

Attachments:
Ichiriki.jpg
Ichiriki.jpg [ 152.16 KiB | Viewed 615 times ]

Author:  Gomoto [ Sat Sep 15, 2018 11:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: This is just a bad move

Takao Shinji - Kono Rin

Attachments:
takao.jpg
takao.jpg [ 164.61 KiB | Viewed 615 times ]

Author:  Gomoto [ Sat Sep 15, 2018 11:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: This is just a bad move

My conclusion:

To connect at a is not joseki anymore. At most it can be called a situational move nowadays.

Author:  Kirby [ Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: This is just a bad move

Joseki is always situational :-p

Author:  Bill Spight [ Sat Sep 15, 2018 7:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: This is just a bad move

Kirby wrote:
Joseki is always situational :-p


But situational plays are not always joseki. :cool:

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