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 Post subject: Re: Never ignore 3-3: Game Review IGS 3D+ 20181126
Post #21 Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:28 pm 
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Variation a:

This seems to be whites strongest response:

(Black has to tenuki in this position, to prevent the white tigermouth would be too small)


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press2.jpg
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Last edited by Gomoto on Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Never ignore 3-3: Game Review IGS 3D+ 20181126
Post #22 Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:32 pm 
Lives in sente

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alternative variations without the press lead to similar winrates:

one example (I reviewed quite a few more):

Variation b:

Attachment:
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Last edited by Gomoto on Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:39 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Never ignore 3-3: Game Review IGS 3D+ 20181126
Post #23 Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:35 pm 
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Perhaps you like to suggest a different variation that demonstrates a more pronounced advantage of not pressing at O4.


Like I said I agree that the press is not one of the "best" options, but I think it is still a very reasonable choice if one aims to simplify the position (like I always do when I think I have the advantage). But perhaps I am wrong, I definitly consider your critique.

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 Post subject: Re: Never ignore 3-3: Game Review IGS 3D+ 20181126
Post #24 Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:47 pm 
Lives in sente

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And two more pro games with more "extreme" positions:

Kenmochi Joe, 8p - Fujisawa Rina, 3p, B+R (Komi 6.5)
43rd Japanese Kisei, preliminary, 2017-12-21



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . W . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Zhu Songli, 6p - Rong Yi, 4p, B+R (Komi 7.5)
1st Chinese Qisheng, preliminary, 2012-08-10


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O X , O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . X X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


yes yes, ladder breaker ;-)

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 Post subject: Re: Never ignore 3-3: Game Review IGS 3D+ 20181126
Post #25 Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2018 6:03 pm 
Lives in sente

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In the end I have to realize I am just an uncurable shoulder hit fanboy ;-)

Or it is kind of magical thinking by me:

because I like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ , . . . . B , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------+[/go]


I also like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ , . . . B . , X . . |
$$ . O . . . O . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------+[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Never ignore 3-3: Game Review IGS 3D+ 20181126
Post #26 Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:24 am 
Judan

Posts: 5455
Location: Cambridge, UK
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Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
Here's a few ideas, I didn't check with bots but those >90% elf winrates show why I prefer LZ once the game is this lopsided to more easily see subsequent mistakes.

Build corner and side in sente. Let white get strong too.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . 4 2 X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . . , . 8 . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . O . 1 . O 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Fighto
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . 3 6 8 . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . 4 2 X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . . , . 5 . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . O . 1 . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This post by Uberdude was liked by: Gomoto
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