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 Post subject: Mouse's Way
Post #1 Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:52 pm 
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I recently found out that my local go club has become active again, and one of the new regulars is a 5dan amateur with the KBA. I decided to drop by and found out that at 4k AGA I'm the second strongest player at the club. Mr.Lee is happy playing simuls with club members and we all enjoy handicap go, but I would like to offer him a good even game sooner rather than later!

Now if we assume 5d with the KBA is equivalent to a 5d AGA, which might not be true, I have 6-8 stones of strength to gain. Easy enough at DDK ranks, but from SDK into Dan rankings it's not going to be a couple month long project.

Here is the current game plan:

-Go club every Monday:

This should be easy enough

-10 games a week on average with at least 10 minutes main time:

I know longer games are better, but any non-blitz game is good and I can't play a 25min main time game over my lunch break.

-Review said games and deliberately work on things I have trouble with

Always check to see if I got away with something I shouldn't have, or if I missed an opportunity. If I have trouble playing against a fuseki/style of play, use it myself until someone shows me how to rip it apart.

-Go problems, this is a free time activity so no need to set a minimum.

I'm of the school to mostly do easy to medium problems. I have Cho Chikuns L&D on all my electronic devices and numerous books for at home. Track my ability to solve any given problem set via a spreadsheet.

-Pro games for inspiration

Mr.Lee showed me an app 오로바둑. I can watch professionals playing on the server as a guest user. He suggested watching them to avoid my openings stagnating. If I always play 2-star points or the low Chinese I fall back on canned responses.Canned responses aren't bad but I should actively decide to use one, not because the book says to.

I'll be keeping track of my metrics here and posting games that I either liked or had trouble with.


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Post #2 Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:03 pm 
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First game in my study program. Not the best game for review purposes since I won, but it felt like black and myself blundered tactics back and forth and I came out on top due to a coin flip more than anything. Self-comments in the game.



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 Post subject: Re: Mouse's Way
Post #3 Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:27 pm 
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Move 12: P10 is a little slow, you could consider playing elsewhere instead
Move 32: E7 would have been more efficient

Good luck on your journey!


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 Post subject: Re: Mouse's Way
Post #4 Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:32 am 
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Gomoto wrote:
Move 12: P10 is a little slow, you could consider playing elsewhere instead

I would be interested in hearing this advice expanded a little bit. I would play P10 in a heartbeat, and I feel like I have learned that a move like this is unimpeachable and that the time spent to make the group strong instead of a target will pay off in the long run (conversely, playing tenuki in order to play faster will come back to bite you).

Is my thinking wrong, or outdated, or just too conservative?

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 Post subject: Re: Mouse's Way
Post #5 Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:37 am 
Judan

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dfan wrote:
Gomoto wrote:
Move 12: P10 is a little slow, you could consider playing elsewhere instead

I would be interested in hearing this advice expanded a little bit. I would play P10 in a heartbeat, and I feel like I have learned that a move like this is unimpeachable and that the time spent to make the group strong instead of a target will pay off in the long run (conversely, playing tenuki in order to play faster will come back to bite you).

Is my thinking wrong, or outdated, or just too conservative?

I think both adding a move at p10 and tenuki are plausible choices. Certainly I wouldn't criticise either in a kyu game. Though I would point out that as bottom left is a 3-4 rather than 4-4 point there is an obvious single first class fuseki point available of enclosing the corner for white in favour of tenuki on this board (tedomari). Perhaps as important as the tenuki or not choice is does white (and black) continue the game in a way that is consistent with the choice: if you don't add a move then you should be prepared for a black invasion and have a decent plan to deal with it, if you do add a move then do you use it later (e.g. invade at r6 (not reasonable after black added move at p8) or r17).


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 Post subject: Re: Mouse's Way
Post #6 Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 9:57 am 
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Gomoto,

thank you for pointing out E7. I've been burned by trying to make a 'fancy' defense before when a simple move would work. But after the hit on the nose of blacks edge side group I just need to remove blacks ability to threaten coming out in two different directions. Which means that the extension at E7 is better since it keeps a stiffer position with respect to blacks outside group.

For move 12 I played P10 looking at R6 or R17 later, so I'm happy Uberdude weighed in there. It was also influenced by blacks R15(the kick), it was an indicator to me that black might leave weaknesses in his shapes throughout the game I could use if I was stable myself.

Uberdude,

Thank you for the comments. You mentioned the first class fuseki point of the enclosure, I had considered it but felt that black taking the extension afterward would give him a double wing. I would get sente back, but the moves I'd naturally look to such as M17 are less attractive(to me) with weaknesses in my group on the right side. What would you recommend?

Two ideas for continuation of play I had
[Edit: Fixed an error in the diagram]
With the low enclosure I take 3 if he denies my own natural extension. I'm concered about a black pincer though.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W One option for the enclosure
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 2 . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This option might be better. It develops the left side better, and lets black approach me so that I can use him to get some stones into the center which could aid the right.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Second option, high pincer to give the right group a place to run
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 5 . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 2 . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Last edited by WiseMouse on Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:29 am, edited 2 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Mouse's Way
Post #7 Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:01 am 
Judan

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WiseMouse wrote:
Thank you for the comments. You mentioned the first class fuseki point of the enclosure, I had considered it but felt that black taking the extension afterward would give him a double wing. I would get sente back, but the moves I'd naturally look to such as M17 are less attractive(to me) with weaknesses in my group on the right side. What would you recommend?

Two ideas for continuation of play I had


Both low and high enclosure are fine, though given AlphaGo's influence I'd probably choose high here (this makes a white extension on lower side better, so makes black even more likely to extend there). I don't mind so much about black getting a double wing: you still have the classic capping play reduction of his shimari, or some shoulder hit if he extends on 3rd line. I think you could reduce immediately (maybe a bit hasty), or play some other big move on top or left side, or indeed your p10 defence as making that group strong means you can more freely reduce his double wing later and avoid double attacks. M17 is indeed a nice follow-up to undermine the high stone (AlphaGo Lee likes it, AlphaGo Zero doesn't seem so impressed!) though as you say with the weakness of the right side group there's a bit of unease. Your 2nd diagram adding the move at 3 is maybe a tad slow and then pincering I worry about him taking the corner in sente (several choices for 5, I just did a simple one for example) and then capping the moyo makes your 3rd line stone wish it was 4th line (PS your black shimari was 1 line off). Instead you could p10 again, m17, f17... It's hard to say, but I get the feeling you think corner for black lower side extension is a good exchange for black, but I think it could be a teensy bit the other way round, so coming back to p10 is rather like having your cake and eating it, because if you p10 immediately black should have approached the lower left, and now you got both.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Take corner, cap
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 3 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 O 4 6 . O . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , 7 . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Here's how I might like things to go as white, but maybe black wouldn't be so cooperative, for example 2 invading at a, or 4 at b.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W A nice white flow
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . b . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 3 , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . 2 , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Mouse's Way
Post #8 Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:34 am 
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Thank you for the advice Uberdude.

This kind of opening isn't super uncommon, so I will give some of these ideas a try. :salute:

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Post #9 Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:15 pm 
Honinbo

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A few comments.


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The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

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Post #10 Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:00 pm 
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Good points Bill. All these moves look so simple once they are on the board, that is the fun/challenge of Go I guess!

Judging from the feedback I've gotten on this game I need to keep the following in mind:
1. Staying consistent with prior moves. E.g. P10 aims at attacking the top left or fighting on the top.
2. Blocking easy bases. E.g. kicking the low approach.
3. High- low relationships. E.g. The two third line stones meant black had good options to press down on my stones.
4. Checking if I can defend by attacking. E.g. the 1pt jump up makes my stones strong by keeping black weak.

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Post #11 Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 7:58 am 
Honinbo

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Oh, yes. One aspect of my suggested play in the bottom left corner that I did not emphasize is that White aims to take sente in order to switch to the attack against Black's top right corner. In general, omitting the kick is certainly playable. :)

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Post #12 Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:45 am 
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I've finished the first full week of my self-imposed program, and have fallen a bit short on games. I played five last week, two against a friend at go club, and then another three on KGS over the week. My account is now at 4k with 15 ranked games. My account is 25 days old.

I have learned about a couple problems in my play. The biggest is that for a self-identified 'solid player' I leave a lot of weakness in my shapes. My opponents point this out, but I have good fighting shape once the fighting begins and win despite myself. Secondly, I am not very comfortable with reductions. Tesuji problems seem like the fix to leaving a weakness in my shape, so I will be spending more time on those problems this week. For reductions, the root problem that I am bad at counting the score. I will always feel nervous about reductions if I don't know who is winning. To address this I am reading 'Positional Judgment: High-Speed Game Analysis' by Cho Chukun.


I was able to get ~100 Tesuji and Life and Death Problems this week. Since I had not played for a long time before this last month, I desperately needed to shake the rust off my reading skills. I was pleased to notice I have increased my range of instantly solved problems!


I decided to work through 'Single Digit Kyu Game Commentaries' by Yuan Zhou. I reckon that since I'm a single digit kyu, there are good odds it will show me errors in my own play. In fact, this is where I had the inspiration to read Cho Chikuns book. The point values Mr.Zhou was giving very simple moves on the edge of the board were a lot higher then I thought they would be. Despite looking at mostly amateur games I did spend some time watching professionals play. One sequence that really jumped out at me was the following variation to keep sente after an early 3-3 invasion. I will have to remember it for my own play.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W To keep sente
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 2 . . . . .
$$ | . . 3 X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


Onwards and upwards to week two! My goals for this week are
1. Actually get 10 games played.
2. 100 Tesuji problems minimum
3. Read Mr.Cho's book. Practice counting scores with professional games, Mr.Cho's own games seem like a good pick for this exercise.
4. Read more of Mr.Zhou's book. Keep note of errors he points out, and try to identify them in my own games.


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Post #13 Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:04 pm 
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Week 2 complete! I had a memorial service Saturday, so I did not have much time for Baduk this week. I lost two games against our clubs resident 5 dan at 6 stone handicap and won 2 even games on KGS. I am at 3k now with 17 games. The first KGS game I played went to endgame, but I started endgame ahead and held my lead. The second was a dragon kill for the win.

I reconnected with a friend of mine out in Washington who also plays Baduk. He sang the praises of In-seong's Yunguseng Dojang when I mentioned I was getting back into studying. He has gotten from 4k to 1d in a year and a half, after having plateaued at 4k for a number of years. I signed up for the season that starts in January and got an email from the Dojang with some recommended lectures. I watched the first one '1-2-3 reading', and it was super useful! I plan on implementing this in my games at Baduk club tonight, and have been practicing with Lee Changhos Life and Death books.(The 6 volume set with bad paper). Last time I tried this collection I completed the first two volumes with some trouble and stalled out in the third. But I am much faster and more accurate now. I correctly answered 120 of 123 out of the first volume, and plan on working through the second one today and tomorrow. Then I will try my hand at the third volume and see if I have leveled up my reading! I think I have since problems that used to take me a couple minutes just collapse into solutions with only a little thought.

I have read a little bit more of both books I am working through, but I definitely got sidetracked into sharpening my tactics. Not a bad thing, and I will keep on this path a while longer.

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Post #14 Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:46 pm 
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I played a very fun game tonight at Go club. My opponent opened with Tengen and we began to fight across the whole board. I played a few questionable moves trying to implement 1-2-3 reading but felt like my reading WAS a lot stronger than a couple days ago. If my whole game thinking improved is another matter entirely of course!



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Post #15 Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:42 am 
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I have not posted here for almost a year. I've been playing, but was involved with other hobbies and not really studying. Part of my problem in a number of things in my life was setting unreasonable demands without first evaluating where I'm at.(Play 1 game a day when I averaged 2 every couple of weeks before) As well as not having a good baseline, since I rarely played I did not have a good idea of what my rating would be at.


So update time: I played about 20 rated games on KGS over the past week and a half and am comfortably 3k.

I've been taking lessons with Yilun Yang 7p, playing in the AYD, and maintaining my Guo Juan problem set for SSR.

Additionally, I've been doing tsumego, playing more games on average, and have been hosting the go club in my city for the past 8 months or so.

I have not been reading any go books, beyond problem set books.

I'm going to take a new approach with this journal for a while since I'm really happy to finally have taken the plunge and gotten a stable rank.(My AGA rank is 5k, so not far off, but I get to play those games so rarely I can't be confident in it)

I'm going to maintain one post a week that tracks what I did Go related, I will be going back in and editing in days to avoid spamming folks. It will be a simple log, and maybe a thought or two. But I am not setting a goal, or really keeping a journal. Instead, this will be something of a log sheet. It will let me establish my Go habits, and decide where to go from there.


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 Post subject: Mouse's Way 10/16-10/22
Post #16 Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:49 am 
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Here is the first week's log

Tuesday 10/16

Game(s) played

I had my lesson with Mr.Yang last night. I continue to have problems with forcing moves.

Problems Completed

I completed 20 Elementary Chomego(Cho Chikuns Encyclopedia of life and death- Elementary)
I completed 134 problems on Guo Juan's site. 33 Learning 101 Review. At one point I stopped doing these for a couple weeks, and my backlog exploded.

Other Activities

None

Wednesday 10/17


Game(s) played

Had a surprise networking event this evening and could not play my AYD game, rescheduled for Sunday

Problems Completed

I completed 43 problems on Guo Juan's site. 19 Learning 24 Review.

Other Activities

None

Thursday 10/18


Game(s) played

none

Problems Completed

I completed 68 problems on Guo Juan's site. 25 Learning 43 Review.
I completed 20 Elementary Chomego(Cho Chikuns Encyclopedia of life and death- Elementary)

Other Activities

None

Friday 10/19


Game(s) played

none

Problems Completed

I completed 33 problems on Guo Juan's site. 14 Learning 19 Review.

Other Activities

Reviewed the 18 1/2 trick play refutation in case I play that one guy at my tournament tomorrow.

Saturday 10/20


Game(s) played

Three games played at a go tournament: Went 1:2. I lost one of the games on time, but was winning if I didn't. For my other loss I had been playing straight for nearly five hours, my games were always the last to finish and pairings happened right after. I lost when I lost focus in endgame and responded to his move like it was normal endgame instead of threatening to revive a dead group.

Problems Completed

none

Other Activities

Recorded my games until I got into time trouble.

Sunday 10/21


Game(s) played

Three games played to close out the tournament. Went 2:1 today for a finishing bout of 3:3. Both games I won had some tight reading, but were straightforward wins. I lost a 4h game as black, and that was still competitive if I had correctly treated a move as sente against my group. All in all, I was very happy with my performance in the tournament even if it didn't translate to wins. Looking forward to continued study and coming back to crush next tournament. (I've held a 4k AGA rank for so long due to low activity that I probably won't get to self promote unless I show up with a 4-5 dan KGS account)

I also played an AYD game tonight. It was going even, slightly in my favor. Then I made a direction mistake in an attack and my opponent pounced on it. I ended up losing by 16.5 points as the black stones. But I am looking forward to seeing the review, my opponent and I found a lot of interesting things in our review.
Problems Completed
none

Other Activities

None

Monday 10/23


Game(s) played

I played a 3H game against a club friend today. I made an over ambitious cut and ended up dieing. It feels like he is improving!

Problems Completed

I completed 14 problems on Guo Juan's site. 2 Learning 12 Review.

Other Activities

None


Last edited by WiseMouse on Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:06 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Post #17 Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:26 pm 
Honinbo
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Hi Mouse, welcome back. :)
Quote:
continue to have problems with forcing moves.
Bad news: this will never go away.
Good news and evidence: even 'forcing' moves considered good or bad by pros the past few hundred years have been refuted by super-human engines. ( Corollary: even pros have had these blind spots for hundreds of years. :blackeye: Join the club. )

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Post #18 Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:02 pm 
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EdLee wrote:
Hi Mouse, welcome back. :)
Quote:
continue to have problems with forcing moves.
Bad news: this will never go away.
Good news and evidence: even 'forcing' moves considered good or bad by pros the past few hundred years have been refuted by super-human engines. ( Corollary: even pros have had these blind spots for hundreds of years. :blackeye: Join the club. )


Thanks Ed!

When I say problems with forcing moves, I don't mean that I have trouble finding good ones, but that I have trouble thinking to even look. I think that is fairer to call a problem.

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Post #19 Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:33 am 
Honinbo
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Quote:
When I say problems with forcing moves, I don't mean that I have trouble finding good ones, but that I have trouble thinking to even look.
But wait! There's more: :)

- missing good moves by you (as you mentioned)
- missing good moves by your opp.
- playing bad moves
- mis-handling bad moves by your opp.

and probably other combinations.
All part of a huge spectrum. :)

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 Post subject: Week One Summary
Post #20 Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:13 am 
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Games
I averaged 1 game a day, with the majority of those loaded onto the weekend due to a tournament.

Problems Completed
I was surprised to find out I still averaged 45 problems a day. I felt like I was doing much fewer problems than normal. So I must actually be doing a lot. Looking forward to seeing the numbers here next week.

Other Activities

I don't do a lot of non-playing or problem-related activities at all. I do watch lectures on occasion but didn't do any of that this week.

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