Life In 19x19
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Needo's Nonsense
http://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=16749		 Page 2 of 3
Author:  EdLee [ Sun Jul 14, 2019 10:24 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
It was because of the 3 liberties.
Ah; now you see liberties are only one of the multitude of factors to evaluate. Somewhere in Contact Fights Bruce mentioned "reading supercedes (any general guidelines)".
Quote:
Also it was a hugely misguided attempt at protecting my R8 group. Now looking at it, I just made things worse.
Exactly. It is not uncommon when you have two groups split by your opponent that playing on either groups may damage the other one, as is the case here ( :w53: hurting R8 group).
Author:  jlt [ Sun Jul 14, 2019 10:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Re:
Needo wrote:
I really need to learn how to read! I guess that means more tsumego for me. :study:


"More tsumego" is never ending...

Actually, even after :w79: your corner was dead, however killing it is not easy.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to kill
$$ --------------+
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . X . X O . . |
$$ . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . X X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |[/go]


This problem appears in http://goproblems.com/prob.php3?id=19171

P.S. With Black 148 at T15, I think that White is dead too.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ --------------+
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . X . X O 2 . |
$$ . . . X O . 1 |
$$ . . . X O O X |
$$ . . . X O . X |
$$ . . . X O 4 3 |
$$ . . . X X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ --------------+
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . X . X O 2 . |
$$ . . . X O . 1 |
$$ . . . X O O . |
$$ . . . X O 5 6 |
$$ . . . X O 4 3 |
$$ . . . X X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |[/go]
Author:  Bill Spight [ Sun Jul 14, 2019 1:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Re:
Needo wrote:
Needo wrote:
I thought It was. But with Two other players questioning move :w35: I am not so sure now. The reading is further than what I can do now. But I think that I will make a life and death problem out of it to further explore why it is or isn't alive.

Scratch that! After looking at :b148: at T15, I was dead If I didn't use :w35: to secure life.

I really need to learn how to read! I guess that means more tsumego for me. :study:


Tsumego is fine. :)

However. . . .
jlt wrote:
Needo wrote:
I really need to learn how to read! I guess that means more tsumego for me. :study:


"More tsumego" is never ending...

Actually, even after :w79: your corner was dead, however killing it is not easy.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to kill
$$ --------------+
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . X . X O . . |
$$ . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . X O . a |
$$ . . . X O . b |
$$ . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . X X B . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |[/go]


This problem appears in http://goproblems.com/prob.php3?id=19171
(Marking mine.)

Thanks for the link, jlt. :D

I took a look, and this problem is rated 6 dan. :o That rating may be a bit high, but if you stick to tsumego, it may be a while before you can read this position out. The key to this position and to the one at :w35: is the marked Black stone. To be confident of living, you either have to see specific eye points or see that White has enough space. (Typically going by space alone you need 8 open points to live. Rule of thumb.) :bc: enables Black to play a monkey jump to "a" or "b" and restrict White to 7 points or less. Even with no reading there is a high probability that Black to play can kill.
Author:  Needo [ Tue Jul 23, 2019 9:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Needo's Nonsense
Well work got ugly and I am behind on my losses. On the bright side I am on problem 1089 on my Tsumego Pro app. I think that is around 9 hours at the rate of 2 problems per minute. I figure I would keep track of it here to have a better estimate of actual study time. Here is what I have learned from my time torturing myself with problems that look familiar (I have seen them before as many as 5 times) but I still can't read it all the way through to make the correct first move. I can only hold two virtual stones on the board at any time in my head. That means that I can only read 2 moves at any time. Earlier in this thread, I said I was reading only 3 moves ahead. I was wrong! These problems are rubbing my nose in that sad state of reality.



Ideally When doing the problems, I attempt to see what the whole sequence is going to be before placing my first stone. This is only the case about 25% of the time. The remainder of the time I play the 1st move and then see if that is going to get me on the right path. Most of these attempts result in failure even with problems that I am sure I have seen multiple times.(many multiple times :grumpy: ) I am pretty sure that the app is more likely to reuse problems that I have missed. I am just now up to 650 problems in the pool now. Up until problem 900 I was only drawing from a pool of 350. I added more problems to the pool because I did remember the solution to a many of the problems and I wanted to force myself to read.



I sincerely hope I can expand the number of virtual stones I can keep in my head. I have never considered this type of mental exercise before. I absolutely hated that electronic game called "Simon". And now I find that I need to build a similar skill. On the bright side, I can now do about 50 problems before my head starts hurting.
Author:  dfan [ Wed Jul 24, 2019 4:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Needo's Nonsense
Needo wrote:
Ideally When doing the problems, I attempt to see what the whole sequence is going to be before placing my first stone. This is only the case about 25% of the time. The remainder of the time I play the 1st move and then see if that is going to get me on the right path.

This is super dangerous (I am prone to it as well) and if you notice it happening I would recommend quitting the app for the moment and coming back when you think you have the concentration to read it all out. In fact when I do tsumego I usually take a break any time I get a problem wrong, since it is a sign that I'm not paying as much attention as I should.

In a life-and-death or tesuji situation, you have to read to the end (or to a position with a known status) before you play your first move. If you don't and you play against an opponent who does, you will lose. You can get away with "This move looks pretty good, let's see what happens" a little more in other situations, like when you are just making good shape (or of course in a blitz game), but even then it is not really a good idea (unfortunately for me).

You will also find that if your tsumego strategy is "play a move that looks good and see if it's on the right path", you will hit a wall pretty soon because you're not capable of reading out the sequences that are necessary for harder problems. The whole point of harder problems (and of go in general!) is that there are multiple plausible moves and you can't tell which one is correct without reading. Trying multiple possible vital points until one of them is accepted is not going to train your skill, and of course doesn't work in a game!
Author:  Bill Spight [ Wed Jul 24, 2019 8:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Needo's Nonsense
dfan wrote:
Needo wrote:
Ideally When doing the problems, I attempt to see what the whole sequence is going to be before placing my first stone. This is only the case about 25% of the time. The remainder of the time I play the 1st move and then see if that is going to get me on the right path.

This is super dangerous (I am prone to it as well) and if you notice it happening I would recommend quitting the app for the moment and coming back when you think you have the concentration to read it all out. In fact when I do tsumego I usually take a break any time I get a problem wrong, since it is a sign that I'm not paying as much attention as I should.


The fact that Needo is able to read the sequence out about 25% of the time indicates that the problems are too hard for him right now. Ideally, he should be able to read the sequence out about 50% of the time. Needo, find easier problems to work on or review the problems you have missed, or do both. :)
Author:  dfan [ Wed Jul 24, 2019 8:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Needo's Nonsense
Bill Spight wrote:
dfan wrote:
Needo wrote:
Ideally When doing the problems, I attempt to see what the whole sequence is going to be before placing my first stone. This is only the case about 25% of the time. The remainder of the time I play the 1st move and then see if that is going to get me on the right path.

This is super dangerous (I am prone to it as well) and if you notice it happening I would recommend quitting the app for the moment and coming back when you think you have the concentration to read it all out. In fact when I do tsumego I usually take a break any time I get a problem wrong, since it is a sign that I'm not paying as much attention as I should.

The fact that Needo is able to read the sequence out about 25% of the time indicates that the problems are too hard for him right now. Ideally, he should be able to read the sequence out about 50% of the time. Needo, find easier problems to work on or review the problems you have missed, or do both. :)

I read their statement as saying that they only tried to read the sequence out about 25% of the time (and otherwise just tried something that looked promising to see what would happen). Either way, doing simpler problems for now is a good idea!
Author:  Needo [ Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Needo's Nonsense
The sad thing is these are the easiest problems on the app. I will have to exercise a little more patience and set the app down for a minute and look at the problem again before venturing a guess. I really do want to read out the whole sequence before playing.



Ultimately, I hope to train myself to hold more virtual stones in my mind and manipulate the positions quicker.



I noticed in Kirby's journal that he was recording a game from memory. I can't even tell what my first move was immediately after finishing a game. I feel like I am playing while missing a part of my brain that should be there. I just never noticed that it was missing before.
Author:  Bki [ Wed Jul 24, 2019 2:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Needo's Nonsense
I personally don't like the app for "serious" tsumego solving (I just use the problems of the day for warmup). It's far easier to be thorough about solving them when you read the diagram from a book (and need to turn a page, or even worse, go check at the end for the solution). Though of course the best is not having the answers at all. Then you must thoroughly consider all the possible answers to your move before considering the problem solved. The elementary collection here is a good start for lots of easy problems without solution given (though the difficulty of the problems vary, some are easily solved at a glance, other can be pretty tough).

As far as memorizing your own games, I don't think people expect you to be able to do so, at your level, for games played on the internet. I know I certainly can't reliably do so. That said, the first few moves are often the hardest. Once you remember them it's easier to grasp the flow of the game.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Wed Jul 24, 2019 3:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Needo's Nonsense
Needo wrote:
The sad thing is these are the easiest problems on the app.


You mentioned that you gave gotten past problem 1000. IMO it is not easy to come up with that many tsumego problems at your level. Maybe so, since today there are many problems available online, but when I was learning go that was not the case. I did fewer than 500 tsumego before reaching shodan. :) Maybe you should start over and do the easiest 500 problems again.

Also, some study of life and death may help Here is an online book: http://www.h-eba.com/heba/JITEN/jiten0-4.html It's in Japanese, but the diagrams are pretty self-explanatory. :)

Quote:
Ultimately, I hope to train myself to hold more virtual stones in my mind and manipulate the positions quicker.


Conscious visualization is a different, but related skill to go reading. It is not strictly necessary. For instance, I am not good at conscious visualization, but I have been tested on spatial relationships and scored very well. :) Not that visualization exercises cannot be fun and beneficial, but visualization is not something to worry about.

Quote:
I feel like I am playing while missing a part of my brain that should be there. I just never noticed that it was missing before.


A harsh judgement. You can still enjoy go and improve your game. :)

Good luck! :D
Author:  Bill Spight [ Wed Jul 24, 2019 4:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Needo's Nonsense
Needo wrote:
I am pretty sure that the app is more likely to reuse problems that I have missed. I am just now up to 650 problems in the pool now. Up until problem 900 I was only drawing from a pool of 350. I added more problems to the pool because I did remember the solution to a many of the problems and I wanted to force myself to read.


When I was learning go I also avoided looking at problems with solutions that I remembered. I now think that was a mistake. In a real game, memory is, if anything, at least as effective as reading, and supports it.

BTW, if you remember a solution to a problem, you can use that memory to strengthen your visualization. First, close your eyes and visualize the problem diagram. (Not as easy as it may sound.) Then mentally visualize the solution, move by move. :)

It is also possible that the 300 problems that you added to the pool are too difficult for you right now.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Wed Jul 24, 2019 4:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Needo's Nonsense
Problem and visualization exercise.



Black to play and kill.

The main line has 5 moves, and the main failure sequence has 6 moves. But there are other relevant variations that have over 10 moves, not all alternating. For instance, in the main failure sequence, what if White passes or tenukies at move 4? OC, in a real game that is unlikely to happen, but visualizing those sequences is good visualization practice. :)
Author:  Needo [ Wed Jul 24, 2019 8:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Needo's Nonsense
Bill Spight wrote:
You mentioned that you gave gotten past problem 1000. IMO it is not easy to come up with that many tsumego problems at your level. Maybe so, since today there are many problems available online, but when I was learning go that was not the case. I did fewer than 500 tsumego before reaching shodan. :) Maybe you should start over and do the easiest 500 problems again.

The app keeps track of how many problems have been attempted. Most of those problems I saw multiple times. I suspect that by the time of writing that 1st post I only saw somewhere between 250 and 350 unique problems. I also want to thank you for pointing out the empty 6 in the corner problem. I am going to use that problem for practice during work tomorrow. If I remember correctly, that is an unsettled position in the Davies Life and Death book. I don't want to look until I get back to town, so that I can use the exercise. I also want to see if it makes any difference on the edge and if having 1 extra liberty for black makes any difference.

Not all the news was bleak. I did have time for a game today before picking my kid up from driver's ed. The life and death problems may have helped me murder a group, make a small reduction, and allow me to tenuki earlier than what I would usually be comfortable with. I should look back at that game to make sure I didn't leave the fight too early. I should also look to see if that reduction could have been fended off.
Author:  jlt [ Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Needo's Nonsense
There are some easy sets of problems here:

https://tsumego-hero.com/sets

(sort the sets by difficulty)
Author:  Bill Spight [ Thu Jul 25, 2019 4:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Needo's Nonsense
Needo wrote:
I also want to thank you for pointing out the empty 6 in the corner problem. I am going to use that problem for practice during work tomorrow. If I remember correctly, that is an unsettled position in the Davies Life and Death book. I don't want to look until I get back to town, so that I can use the exercise. I also want to see if it makes any difference on the edge and if having 1 extra liberty for black makes any difference.

(Emphasis mine.)

Good. That's the spirit! :D

While you're at it, you might see what difference 2 extra liberties make for the corner group. :)
Author:  EdLee [ Fri Jul 26, 2019 3:50 am ]
Post subject: 
Hi Needo,
Quote:
you might see what difference 2 extra liberties make for the corner group. :)
After that, a very natural next shape to study, LGroup:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ +--------------
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O X . X
$$ | . O O O X . .
$$ | . X X X X . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . X . . . . .[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ +--------------
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . X .
$$ | . O O O . X .
$$ | . . . . . X .
$$ | . X X X X . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]
Author:  Needo [ Tue Jul 30, 2019 11:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Needo's Nonsense
I want to thank JLT for that website :salute: . I like the way it makes you cool down for a day if you fail that problem. That has helped slow me down and not play an impulse move. Ed I am afraid that I can't keep track of all of the moves in my head with the L group. Using a crutch, I will have to use a program and explore all of the decision tree for that group.

I don't know if this has happened with anyone else on this forum. But, I have become a little obsessed with solving problems to the extent that I would rather do tsumego than play an actual game. I am sure this will pass.

It is cool to find out that you only need i extra liberty to freeze an incomplete killing shape if it has 1 shared liberty, and you need two extra liberties to freeze an incomplete killing shape if its remaining liberty won't be shared.

I would also like to find out what conditions are required to make an unsettled position symmetrical (the first move to kill is in the same location as the first move to live) verse you can't kill a group by playing where its first move to live would be. (you have to play somewhere else) This is just like learning to do math again :mrgreen: .
Author:  EdLee [ Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:55 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hi Needo,
Quote:
I have become a little obsessed with solving problems to the extent that I would rather do tsumego than play an actual game. I am sure this will pass.
I wish I had this 'problem'! :)
Quote:
can't keep track of all of the moves in my head with the L group. ... use a program and explore all of the decision tree for that group.
Even better is using actual stones on a real board. :tmbup: :study:
Author:  Bki [ Wed Jul 31, 2019 4:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Needo's Nonsense
Playing on a board is certainly preferable than doing so on the computer imo, though I tend to use it mostly for tough problems, though sometime I will play over the variations of an interesting problem after solving it.

As for the L group, I think it's a good candidate to train your visualization ability. The position is not hard to recreate in your mind whenever you feel like working on it. Then you consider the various ways white could try to live and try to see the variations unfold in your mind as you kill him... Then you add hanes, then do the L+1 groups, L+1 groups with hane, etc...

It won't come at once but if you practice it it will help solving problem and reading deeper in general.
Author:  jlt [ Wed Jul 31, 2019 5:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Needo's Nonsense
Needo wrote:
Using a crutch, I will have to use a program and explore all of the decision tree for that group.

I don't know if this has happened with anyone else on this forum. But, I have become a little obsessed with solving problems to the extent that I would rather do tsumego than play an actual game. I am sure this will pass.


For a small tsumego like the L group, it is possible to explore all the decision tree mentally, but for a more complicated one, nobody can do that. Here is how I proceed (I am not saying this is the best way, I am just a kyu player and have seen people solve tsumegos with much less effort than me...)

1) Try to find a reasonable move for :b1:. It could be a move that reduces space, or reduces liberties, or that looks like a vital point, or you may recognize a known technique or a known shape...

2) Then try to find a reasonable main line :b1: :w2: :b3: :w4: ...

3) If you think that works, explore the tree a bit more. At least, look at what happens if :w2: is played at :b3:.

4) If your :b1: turns out to be wrong, go back to stage 1) and try another candidate for :b1:.

5) If none of your candidates works, then either :b1: is not among your candidates so you must try something "unnatural", or :b1: was among your candidates but you misread some sequence :w2: :b3:... so you must go back to the beginning and explore the tree more thoroughly. You may want to proceed by elimination, discard first moves :b1: that are definitely wrong so that you can concentrate on other candidates.
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