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 Post subject: paK0's goals and dreams
Post #1 Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:36 am 
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Mh, this seems like a nice idea to keep track of my progress, so I guess I'll start a journal as well:

CURRENT GOAL: STOP PLAYING LIKE A MORON!!!


Last edited by paK0 on Sat May 31, 2014 1:13 pm, edited 17 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: paK0's goals and dreams
Post #2 Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:59 am 
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Good luck on your journey.


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 Post subject: Re: paK0's goals and dreams
Post #3 Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 12:28 am 
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Mh, maybe I'll just make Friday the day for my updates.

Played some more games - good
Made 16k - good
read the book but still fail to apply it in every game - bad, I'll leave that in the goals for now

And finally a game of mine, I choose one that shows why I'm still bottom of the food chain, I took quite a mauling on this one, since I completely neglected the left side. Any comments appreciated =)



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 Post subject: Re: paK0's goals and dreams
Post #4 Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 1:41 am 
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I don't think the left side was your biggest problem. You only lost by 17.5 points, which you could probably have avoided with better endgame. My main advice is to play greedier and not defend so much. Precise endgame play is boring but simply playing tenuki a lot instead of defending would gain you at least 20 points in this game.

Some comments on the endgame:

Black 63 + 65: This is gote defence. Unless you are 100% sure you will die, you should tenuki. The value of an endgame move at this point is at least 6 points, probably a lot more.

Black 67: Tenuki. Gain 6 points

Black 75: The first line is worth less than the second line. Moves around e18 or m18 or r10 are bigger.

Move 83: Even if there is a problem here, using this move at e18 or m18 secures two eyes for your top group and your middle isn't going to die. Defend by making points when possible, gain 6 points.

Move 87: Big, but e18 is bigger because both players have open skirts there. Gain 3 points.

Move 89: Not needed. White can push for a couple of points but e18 is way bigger.

Move 91: Not needed, better at o18 or s12.

Move 93: Big, but I *still* wanna go e18 and make White respond to *me* for once.

Move 103: This cutting point is actually protected because of the http://senseis.xmp.net/?ThirdLineCapture tesuji. You could have gained 6 points by playing at e18.

Move 105: m2 or e18 are bigger.

Move 109: e18 is bigger, and at the very least f16 is one point bigger. Greed is good.

Move 111: e18, e17 or tenuki are all bigger. Stop defending.

Move 113: Finally, but because of e17 this is gote now, so o18 is probably bigger

Move 119: o18 is bigger. 2nd line > 1st line

Move 125: Tenuki. Locally o16 is better.

Move 135: Small. m2 is big, p16 is worth -1 points now.

Move 141: Small, and could be at m6.

Move 145: If you had a real cutting point there he would have cut instead of playing l6 last move.

Move 151: Better at e11. Greed is good.

Move 153: Tenuki. If you are going to defend play at e11 or g14.

Move 155: Tenuki.

Move 163: Tenuki. If you insist on playing locally be greedier and play n15

Move 167: Not actually sente, for either of you. Tenuki and play e1.

Move 175: h2 is good shape if it's actually necessary. I'm don't think you need it.

Move 191: r2 would make the same shape you made at h2, securing an eye.

Move 193: Better at m1. You could tenuki except there's probably nothing bigger left.


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 Post subject: Re: paK0's goals and dreams
Post #5 Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 3:25 am 
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Mh, 17 points sounds like quite a lot to me.

Anyway, thanks a bunch for the review, I always had a feeling that I was kinda clueless regarding the endgame, but I never realized that it creates that big of a point difference.

I'll try to work on my greed^^

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 Post subject: Re: paK0's goals and dreams
Post #6 Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 9:06 am 
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I think you did quite well in the opening of that game. Your opening in this game was without a doubt better than your opponent's, so you are definitely applying what you have read. You chose a strong fuseki (the orthodox) and you started moving faster than your opponent with your approach on top instead of letting him dictate the game by immediately approaching his wedge.

In fact, after white's weak response of the 3-4 and your pull back you were very far ahead in comparison. When he dove in between your approach moves and your star-point stone on the top right he was giving you a free weak group to attack and you correctly kicked it to ask him if he really wanted to commit to it while finishing your own group's base. I would have played O17 directly as move 13, but you eventually got around to playing P17 which is almost as good, forcing him to run. However, you didn't follow up on attacking his group and white managed to get away from you on move 40.

If you have the time, take a look at Nick Sibicky's lecture on attacking - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQ1lJJrSEGE It goes over the basics of profiting from your opponent's weak groups. I would also recommend any of his other videos. They are very helpful for learning good go basics and also are very entertaining. However, they are somewhat long (most close to 1 hour).

If you are wondering about the end-game, or "yose," then I would recommend this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GeL-ot-aAw It is an introduction on how to approach end-game moves. This one in is only 15 minutes.

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"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves


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 Post subject: Re: paK0's goals and dreams
Post #7 Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 9:55 am 
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Mh, nice to hear that some things stuck =)

Thanks a lot for the links, especially the endgame one will be interesting, I'll give them a whirl over the weekend.

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 Post subject: Re: paK0's goals and dreams
Post #8 Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 1:22 pm 
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moyoaji wrote:
If you are wondering about the end-game, or "yose," then I would recommend this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GeL-ot-aAw It is an introduction on how to approach end-game moves. This one in is only 15 minutes.
Sorry, but this must be the worst instructional video I have ever seen. If I did not know enough to be annoyed by all the mistakes, I would have been hopelessly confused.

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 Post subject: Re: paK0's goals and dreams
Post #9 Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 1:43 pm 
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moyoaji wrote:
In fact, after white's weak response of the 3-4 and your pull back you were very far ahead in comparison. When he dove in between your approach moves and your star-point stone on the top right he was giving you a free weak group to attack and you correctly kicked it to ask him if he really wanted to commit to it while finishing your own group's base. I would have played O17 directly as move 13, but you eventually got around to playing P17 which is almost as good, forcing him to run.


Erm, are you talking about move 11? Because that is not a good move. Usually you want to avoid attaching or shoulder hitting your opponent's weak stones. This exchange makes White stronger, and doesn't really help Black make a base here, because Black's group is rather thin. It would be better to play at k17, o17 or r14. Moves like l17 actually help your opponent.

I'm sorry if I'm being harsh, but "don't touch what you are attacking" is one of the fundamental basics of attacking.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$---------------------
$$|...................|
$$|...................|
$$|...O.X....23.......|
$$|...O....X,.1...X...|
$$|...................|
$$|...................|[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: paK0's goals and dreams
Post #10 Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 3:28 pm 
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Sverre wrote:
Erm, are you talking about move 11? Because that is not a good move. Usually you want to avoid attaching or shoulder hitting your opponent's weak stones. This exchange makes White stronger, and doesn't really help Black make a base here, because Black's group is rather thin. It would be better to play at k17, o17 or r14. Moves like l17 actually help your opponent.

I'm sorry if I'm being harsh, but "don't touch what you are attacking" is one of the fundamental basics of attacking.


In many cases, yes. When you touch a stone you force it to become stronger. However, that also makes it heavier and I feel like white's move should be treated lightly because he played it on the 4th line. That is key. If the move was on the 3rd line I wouldn't touch it. I would just take away the base immediately and now black has to run or try desperately to make life.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White could try 'a' to live locally
$$---------------------
$$|...................|
$$|........a..........|
$$|...O.X.....1.2.....|
$$|...O....X,.....X...|
$$|...........3.......|
$$|...................|[/go]


What I like about it is that it is asking white to commit to his stone. It looked like white just plopped down a stone at random and this move asks: "Okay, do you really want to try to live here or do you want to run away now?" when white pulls down he says "Actually, yes, I do want to live here!" So then black can take away the base (which also helps enclose the corner in sente) and says again "Do you really want to try to live here?" Now white has to run away and say "I take it back! Don't kill me!" and black can use that to make points on the right.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$---------------------
$$|...................|
$$|...................|
$$|...O.X....23.4.....|
$$|...O....X,.1...X...|
$$|...................|
$$|...........5...6...|[/go]

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

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 Post subject: Re: paK0's goals and dreams
Post #11 Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 5:31 pm 
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moyoaji wrote:
In many cases, yes. When you touch a stone you force it to become stronger. However, that also makes it heavier and I feel like white's move should be treated lightly because he played it on the 4th line. That is key. If the move was on the 3rd line I wouldn't touch it. I would just take away the base immediately and now black has to run or try desperately to make life.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White could try 'a' to live locally
$$---------------------
$$|...................|
$$|........a..........|
$$|...O.X.....1.2.....|
$$|...O....X,.....X...|
$$|...........3.......|
$$|...................|[/go]


'a' isn't about living locally, it's about stealing Black's base. That's why k17 is a good move.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White is cramped, Black is good.
$$---------------------
$$|...................|
$$|...............5...|
$$|...O.X...2.1.3..6..|
$$|...O....X,.....X...|
$$|...................|
$$|...................|
$$|................4..|[/go]


I rarely play the large knight's extension, but in this position I would play it because it feels like White almost has to slide at :w5: to get a base.

White could (and probably should) jump out or tenuki instead of :w3:, of course.

Quote:
What I like about it is that it is asking white to commit to his stone. It looked like white just plopped down a stone at random and this move asks: "Okay, do you really want to try to live here or do you want to run away now?" when white pulls down he says "Actually, yes, I do want to live here!" So then black can take away the base (which also helps enclose the corner in sente) and says again "Do you really want to try to live here?" Now white has to run away and say "I take it back! Don't kill me!" and black can use that to make points on the right.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$---------------------
$$|...................|
$$|...................|
$$|...O.X....23.4.....|
$$|...O....X,.1...X...|
$$|...................|
$$|...........5...6...|[/go]


I'm saying it's not a good idea in this position because the shoulder hit makes Black thinner on the top side, where White already has a strong iron pillar in his corner. You are trying to make him heavier but you are just getting bad aji. Playing at k17 is a better way to attack and will make as many points on the right.

How would you respond if White clamps your stone?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$---------------------
$$|...................|
$$|...................|
$$|...O.X...523.4.....|
$$|...O....X,.1...X...|
$$|...................|
$$|...................|[/go]


This is also interesting for White. I would be willing to fight here.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$---------------------
$$|...................|
$$|...................|
$$|...O.X....23.4.....|
$$|...O....X,.1...X...|
$$|...................|
$$|................5..|
$$|...................|[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: paK0's goals and dreams
Post #12 Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 7:22 pm 
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Sverre wrote:
I'm saying it's not a good idea in this position because the shoulder hit makes Black thinner on the top side, where White already has a strong iron pillar in his corner. You are trying to make him heavier but you are just getting bad aji. Playing at k17 is a better way to attack and will make as many points on the right.

How would you respond if White clamps your stone?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$---------------------
$$|...................|
$$|...................|
$$|...O.X...523.4.....|
$$|...O....X,.1...X...|
$$|...................|
$$|...................|[/go]


Fair point. That clamp is very hard to deal with. I can see now the important difference between this shape and this shape:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$--------------
$$|.............
$$|.............
$$|....23.......
$$|...X.1...X...
$$|.............
$$|...4.........
$$|.............[/go]


This, I know, is good for black. It is played with the sanrensei and in handicap games to make white heavy. I was comparing the situations, but the knight's move is much weaker than the diagonal in this case. There is a weakness in the corner, but a clamp is nothing to fear for black.

The two looked basically the same, and I know that this is a komoku joseki for the two-point high approach. It is uncommon, but playable. Usually black then plays another move on the outside, but black can tenuki from here. However, :b4: does fix the defect of the clamp and is clearly necessary to play this way.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$--------------
$$|.............
$$|.............
$$|....23.......
$$|..X,41...a...
$$|.....5.......
$$|.............
$$|.............[/go]


I suppose I tried to combine two pieces of knowledge together and didn't read enough into the current situation on the board. Yes, without another move black is far too thin on the top to play like that. However, couldn't black play this way and treat the hane at the head of two and the extension as miai?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$---------------------
$$|...................|
$$|...................|
$$|...O.X....23.b.....|
$$|...O....X,41...X...|
$$|...........a.......|
$$|...................|[/go]

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves


Last edited by moyoaji on Sat Jun 29, 2013 6:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: paK0's goals and dreams
Post #13 Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 7:45 pm 
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moyoaji wrote:
I suppose I tried to combine two pieces of knowledge together and didn't read enough into the current situation on the board. Yes, without another move black is far too thin on the top to play like that. However, couldn't black play this way and treat the hane at the head of two and the extension as miai?


Yes, that is better, you are protecting your weak group now. But you are pushing White from behind into the center. And there still some is aji at 'a'. White's 3 stone wall is making your corner weaker than it should be, and White is out so he can now approach at :w7:, or maybe on the 4th line. For this reason I still prefer k17 over l17.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$---------------------
$$|...................|
$$|...................|
$$|...O.X.a..23.6.....|
$$|...O....X,41...X...|
$$|...........5.......|
$$|................7..|
$$|...................|[/go]



Looking at the whole board it feels like :w7: almost connects :w5: with the stone on the side, bringing all of White's weak stones together. It feels like a very powerful move, even though it has little effect on Black's corner. I think maybe Black should grab that point for himself instead of :b6:, which is a little small scale. Unless you want to try to split White now?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$---------------------
$$|...................|
$$|...................|
$$|...O.X.a..23.6.....|
$$|...O....X,41...X...|
$$|...........5.......|
$$|...............7...|
$$|...................|
$$|...................|
$$|...................|
$$|...,.....,.....,...|
$$|................O..|
$$|...................|
$$|...................|
$$|...................|
$$|...................|
$$|...O.....,.....,X..|
$$|..............X....|
$$|...................|
$$|...................|
$$---------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: paK0's goals and dreams
Post #14 Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 9:47 pm 
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Well, here is my thought about Black's next play. :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$| . . . W . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$| . . . W . . . . X , . 1 . . . X . . . |
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$| . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$| . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -[/go]


:b2: aims to make the :wc: stones inefficient. "a" is another thought, responding to :w1: and pincering the White stone on the right side. :)

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At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

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 Post subject: Re: paK0's goals and dreams
Post #15 Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 10:00 pm 
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Bill Spight wrote:
Well, here is my thought about Black's next play. :)

Yeah, I like this a lot for black. And it seems like the right move for a lot of reasons:

1. It greatly hurts white's corner stones, as you said.
2. The left is the biggest side and the side with the most potential for white.
3. It is definitely sente against white's corner, so black has the initiative again.
4. Whether black undercuts the corner, makes a base, or heads toward the center I like the result for black - it's hard to go wrong from :b2:.

I think this is probably the best move on the board for black. Well seen. :salute:

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

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Post #16 Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 8:53 am 
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After reading all that I think the move for me would be k17, it gives a base and I can attack the white stone later.

Bill your move seems really good/better, but I don't think thats something I could ever come up with in a game^^

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Post #17 Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:25 am 
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So, I've been playing more and switched to KGS, since GoPanda2 annoys me to no end.

Here is a game I won, but I'm not quite happy with it. I won by about 10 points I think, but that seems waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too little when I take into account the large group I killed at the bottom. Any comments highly appreciated.


Not sure why the sgf doesn't work, the downloaded file is fine.
€dit: Nvm, fixed.

€dit2: Just saw that a 3-3 Invasion top left should have been possible x.X




Attachments:
kelnor-paK0.sgf [4.31 KiB]
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Last edited by paK0 on Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #18 Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:34 am 
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There is a saying, if you lose 4 corners, resign. So, it turned up good for you, actually :)

My opinion is that you let him to reduce your upper center too much from the left.

But, I'm very weak, I'll let someone stronger to comment on this game.

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Post #19 Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:40 am 
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vpopovic wrote:
There is a saying, if you lose 4 corners, resign. So, it turned up good for you, actually :)




Yeah, I've heard black looses if one gets 4 corners as well, but I think that only applies to even games.

The thing is that I was feeling like I'm winning during the game and having so much mojo from the start felt really nice, but the result was a lot closer than I expected(and I probably would have lost for real if he hadn't thrown all the stones on the bottom at me^^)

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Post #20 Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:17 am 
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Universal go server handle: skydyr
Online playing schedule: When my wife is out.
I always find this strategy from white makes me angry, because it's so clearly wrong, but it's important to get to a point where you are able to effectively counter it. The idea from white is to bet that you don't know how to use influence and so you won't be able to attack effectively. Killing a white group isn't a terrible thing, but you also need to make sure that you can make points while you attack without killing.

Your idea here wasn't bad, though white got a lot more out of the top left than he should have. As you said, the 3-3 point was open for quite a while, but he made a very heavy group in your area of influence that you were able to kill.

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