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 Post subject: Time wasting with Go
Post #1 Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:49 am 
Dies in gote

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Hello, I sought after a place to track my own progress, I am European (english is not my native language), and plan to fully attend tournaments in the future.

I don't know where I will end up, but I hope to at least reach above average strength regarding to other european players, so that probably means 2-3 Dan, but not sure. I don't even know exactly why I am so addicted to this game, I don't even have, at least not yet, any friends or colleagues playing it, but nontheless I enjoy it very much. Of course I also have other duties, and interests so I can (one part of me finds this quite sad and another relieved) naturally not spend as much time as younger players, but I am still interested what level I can reach, even though already being a bit older. Most of all, I hope to meet a lot of interesting personalities across the board.

For now, I play a lot online, either on FOX GO, OGS or KGS (around 1-3 kyu strength, 2D on FOX GO).

How I plan to progress for now

    Tsumego and Tesuji:
  • I will study tsumego and tesuji everyday, for that I will use an app on my phone, tsumego-hero.com and books (I committed myself to max buy two books, one with easy problems and one with more difficult ones, and will buy more when I truly have used them up.)

    Pro games:
  • I will replay and memorize at least 100 moves (often more) of the newest pro game I can find, sometimes I might take a pro game that is a bit older, but has higher ranked pros playing. For that I will use the Drago Software (which takes me around 15-20 minutes, the replay feature is gold worth). I will also use Leela Zero to understand sequences if I stumble over something or simply see if my estimate on who was ahead was correct. Sometimes I will revisit old games, instead of replaying newer ones.
  • At least once a month on a sunday morning I will replay and memorize at least 100 moves of a pro game with international top players on Drago and afterwards replay it on my own board too.

    My own games:
  • I will take time to play at least 30 minutes every day, and then if I have time to review it with AI, I will probably post games from time to time here. On Weekends I will try to use a bit more time if available.

    Other resources:
  • I will "attend" the internetgo school from Guo Juan for inspiration and basic fundamentals every day.
  • I will if possible also check out other resources for inspiration from time to time, for example on Youtube/Twitch: Dywrin, Haijin Lee, the Baduk Café, AGA videos and so on, but I will not use them to study in depth i.e. spend more time on them than the length of the respective video.
  • If I progress faster than expected, and reach 2-3 Dan on OGS and KGS, I will think about trying out lectures from pro's or attending Yunguseng Dojang, but that is probably far into the future.

The love of Go has followed me a long time, and I hope I can finally return it satisfactorily.

That was all for now, if you have any hints on how to study even more efficient let me know.

PS: I have followed some of the study journals of this forum for quite a long time, especially Kirby's and am happy to finally join the fray, and hopefully also keep up with it.

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 Post subject: Re: Time wasting with Go
Post #2 Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 5:56 pm 
Honinbo

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Welcome! Good luck in your goal of achieving 2~3 dan.

:salute:

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 Post subject: Re: Time wasting with Go
Post #3 Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:39 am 
Lives with ko

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Best of luck to you!

As far as average ranking goes, I don't think the average European is a 3D. I heard from a Korean amateur that visits our club occasionally that if you are a 5K, you know more go than 90% of players. But then again, in Korea a lot of people "know" how to play, as in they know the rules, but they haven't cared to study hard. That's probably similar to me knowing the rules of chess, but only having like an 800 elo. Any way, I wouldn't worry about other players ranks, so much as try to be the best you can be with the amount of study time you can comfortably put out!

Welcome.

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 Post subject: Re: Time wasting with Go
Post #4 Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:22 pm 
Dies in gote

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Thanks for the welcome everyone, and that is very true Hades12.

Well the week has been quite eventful, I have kept up with my goals, replayed pro games, done tsumego, made progress with InternetGoSchool and of course played the game. I am still 2-3 kyu on OGS and KGS so rank wise I made no progress, but I already feel like I have won a better understanding of what is important in a game, than the week before and that is to me worth more than a rank up or two. I also attended my local go club, the local players were eager to ask for my rank. I felt slightly uncomfortable with that question, because I only have an online rank and I know online ranks tend to be a bit inflated.

I played only two games that evening, and lost both my games (in one game I was receiving handicap stones). I think the unusual perspective also had an impact on my play, to see the board in real life, rather than just on a flat screen, I should've practiced on my board at home and replayed more of the pro games on it, but nontheless they were good games and both my opponents played strong. I loved playing on a real board again and at the end of the month I will also attend a tournament, so I plan to attend the go club every week until then. (Looking forward to it!)

When I started the journal I had plans to just update it once a week, but now I think I should maybe get into the habit of posting here more than once a week or at least prepare reviews for it before hand and post my thoughts to thinks that happened which I found interesting, especially to get maybe a few comments on my games from others.

Anyways I thought I would be able to prepare more reviews for this journal, but I only finished the following (although I am proud of the game because it was a victory against a 1D on OGS - even though neither him or I probably played at the best of our abilities).
I played a lot of slow moves in the beginning, which enabled white to gain the lead, but in the end how white handled his group at the top decided the game at least if I can trust my version of Leela.



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 Post subject: Re: Time wasting with Go
Post #5 Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:54 pm 
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DeprivedWaste wrote:
...it was a victory against a 1D on OGS ...


Congrats on the win.

Yes, your opening moves were slow. But you know that.
More importantly, they were missing a sense of direction: not merely slow, but missing the big points.

Don't let Leela mislead you about the lower right joseki. Computers are notoriously bad at estimating influence early in the game. Even for them, the tree is just too big.
In the following position, according to DailyJoseki, the majority of pros will play N4:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Position at move 8
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . B . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


You don't have to turn at R5. Sure, it is a nice move to make if nothing bigger is available, but it is not urgent.
White is not getting out of the corner along the right side. If he plays there, you can keep pushing him down.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 1 . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . B . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . B . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The pros play this not only because it is an extension off of a short wall - which is likely to become a longer wall - but because it keeps white pressed into the corner.
In your game, white was able to get out. ( Fortunately for you, he misplayed it later )

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$2c
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 1 . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . 2 . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


In this corner, white is getting all of the inside territory, and some of the outside influence.


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 Post subject: Re: Time wasting with Go
Post #6 Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 1:01 pm 
Dies in gote

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Thank you very much! Without your comments I certainly would've played the move I learned from Leela against the 3-3 the next time I would have encountered it.. Also good to know that, regarding influence, I shouldn't trust Leela entirely in the beginning of the game.

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Post #7 Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:43 am 
Honinbo
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Quote:
Computers are were notoriously bad at estimating influence early in the game.
Very strange opinion, considering the top engines are more than two stones above top humans.

These engines don't calculate in terms of influence afaik; that's a human thing ( and where human misunderstandings come in ).

The engines are very powerful tools, and we shouldn't "blindly" follow bot moves without at least some studying and understanding. For the majority of amateurs, high-level human interpretation of the bot moves is still quite valuable. But this negative view of the engines' whole board evaluation is anachronistic.


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 Post subject: Re: Time wasting with Go
Post #8 Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:38 am 
Judan

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EdLee wrote:
Quote:
Computers are were notoriously bad at estimating influence early in the game.
Very strange opinion, considering the top engines are more than two stones above top humans.

These engines don't calculate in terms of influence afaik; that's a human thing ( and where human misunderstandings come in ).

The engines are very powerful tools, and we shouldn't "blindly" follow bot moves without at least some studying and understanding. For the majority of amateurs, high-level human interpretation of the bot moves is still quite valuable. But this negative view of the engines' whole board evaluation is anachronistic.


Don't let Leela Joaz mislead you about the lower right joseki. Computers 1 dans are notoriously bad at estimating influence judging direction early in the game.
:D

I prefer the turn over the jump, locally speaking it and the jump are both viable local moves (though I think bots tend to prefer turn in general more than humans tended to before), but here it coordinates well with black's 2 4-4s in developing the right side as part of a moyo stretching to the top (there's your 4d interpretation/explanation of why turn is better). One could even argue that in response to the shoulder hit white pushes the wrong way: the theory (that predates strong AI) for 3-3 points is that you push the side that is NOT the side you opponent would be happy to develop with the turn, so that after he extends your knight slide undermines the side which he wants (here the right, so white should push at q3 on the bottom so he can slide at s5 on the right). I'd also suggest Leela's (DeprivedWaster, is this classic Leela or LeelaZero you refer to) first variation of black extending to q9 to be keep going with the simple moyo plan, e3 approach is a more complicated, "racing to all the first class opening moves" style leaving q5 weak which is harder to handle.

JoazBanbeck wrote:
In the following position, according to DailyJoseki, the majority of pros will play N4:

I don't know dailyjoseki, but is that a full board or local pattern search? I checked ps.waltheri.net full-board and that position came up 19 times (always in a different order, I presume due to my argument about white blocking shoulder hit wrong side if he already knows about where the black corners are) and n4 jump was played once (and lost), turn 6 times (3 wins), high approach to the 3-4 also 6 times with 3 wins.


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 Post subject: Re: Time wasting with Go
Post #9 Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:59 am 
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DeprivedWaste wrote:
Thank you very much! Without your comments I certainly would've played the move I learned from Leela against the 3-3 the next time I would have encountered it.. Also good to know that, regarding influence, I shouldn't trust Leela entirely in the beginning of the game.


If you are using Leela 11, you are right, as it trained on human play. But any recent version of Leela Zero should be much better than humans regarding influence. Even strong amateurs can best current top bots tactically on occasion. The main strength of the bots lies in their understanding of influence. :)

(As Ed said, the bots have no concept of influence, but they are still better at it than humans. ;))

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 Post subject: Re: Time wasting with Go
Post #10 Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:28 am 
Honinbo

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Uberdude wrote:
I prefer the turn over the jump, locally speaking it and the jump are both viable local moves (though I think bots tend to prefer turn in general more than humans tended to before),


There was a Sakata vs. Go Seigen game where Sakata played a 3-3 and later Go Seigen played the shoulder blow. Go Seigen followed up with a jump instead of the turn, and Sakata was able to embarrass Go Seigen in the corner. (Not that Sakata recommended the turn, either. ;)) Perhaps the pros avoided the turn because they thought that the resulting position required an extension. Something that the bots have taught us is not so. :)

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Post #11 Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:14 am 
Dies in gote

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Uberdude wrote:
I prefer the turn over the jump, locally speaking it and the jump are both viable local moves (though I think bots tend to prefer turn in general more than humans tended to before), but here it coordinates well with black's 2 4-4s in developing the right side as part of a moyo stretching to the top (there's your 4d interpretation/explanation of why turn is better). One could even argue that in response to the shoulder hit white pushes the wrong way: the theory (that predates strong AI) for 3-3 points is that you push the side that is NOT the side you opponent would be happy to develop with the turn, so that after he extends your knight slide undermines the side which he wants (here the right, so white should push at q3 on the bottom so he can slide at s5 on the right). I'd also suggest Leela's (DeprivedWaster, is this classic Leela or LeelaZero you refer to) first variation of black extending to q9 to be keep going with the simple moyo plan, e3 approach is a more complicated, "racing to all the first class opening moves" style leaving q5 weak which is harder to handle.


I was refering to Leela Zero, and LZ says that both R4 and Q3 are very close in win rate for white, when I let LZ play out the situation, it interestingly enough played not a slide but also turned around with white (it playing R4 might be because I let it choose the move after ~5k playouts):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . B . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Though addmitingly my PC is not that strong, so I stopped LZ at around ~5k playouts other moves it suggested for black after Q3 were O4, turn at R5 or high approach at E4

I think if I ever played like that, it would end in fiasco, but I find the discussion very interesting. For me, I'll probably just experiment around a bit, and see if I feel more comfortable with the hane / turn around, or the jump for black.

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 Post subject: Re: Time wasting with Go
Post #12 Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:58 am 
Dies in gote

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Another game, this time against a 1k on OGS, played with Canadian byo-yomi (3 minutes per 10 moves) and if I remember correctly, 1 minute main time, 3 minutes felt long enough in the early middle game, but later the situations at the top right and me reading out stuff on the left side sucked my time away, and before I knew it I played S6 and timed out right after.





For a moment I felt salty, but the feeling didn't linger long, I actually feel happy now. I handled the running better than I would normally, even in the game it felt nice to see and play the simple kosumi at K12, especially after I first pondered other moves that would probably have been questionable.
Also the pushing sequence before, normally I would needlessly think about complicated probably questionable moves, but after the InternetGoSchool I really appreciate it.
It feels no longer ugly or pressured to simply move along in certain situations, so to speak.

Then shortly after the sequence at the top happened, I knew it would hurt my corner at the very least, but I felt simply extending would be submissive, Leela disagrees with me here though, in the end black got ahead, because white made some more questionable moves.

Next time I need to manage my time better.

Tsumego practice is going well, pro games memorizing too, I have no need to explain, looking forward to this week.


Attachments:
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 Post subject: Re: Time wasting with Go
Post #13 Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:49 pm 
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At move 24, B16 is dual sente

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black gets more space
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X C . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 O O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . , . . . X . , X . . |
$$ | . O O X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


There is no point in running along the 18th rank any further. You need to go two moves before you tenuki, so that the turn is not atari, like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Not far enough: the turn is sente
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


But three moves gives him unnecessary influence:
(As a general rule, every stone in an outward-facing wall is worth at least two points. ) So you lose at least a point every time you push.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Too far: white is getting more than a point's worth of influence
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . ? . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O O W . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

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Post #14 Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:29 pm 
Lives in gote

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Joaz Banbeck wrote:
At move 24, B16 is dual sente

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black gets more space
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X C . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 O O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . , . . . X . , X . . |
$$ | . O O X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


There is no point in running along the 18th rank any further.


The computers don't agree, they think black B16 is a bad move (-5%) compared to G18 in the game. I guess DeprivedWaste knows this since he's using LZ already.

Joaz what do you think? Personally I was surprised when I saw this, but I think the pros agree and stopped playing this hane too. If some new even better computer came out and said no actually B16 is actually still best, maybe I would start agreeing with that too. :cool:

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Post #15 Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:47 pm 
Honinbo

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As I understand it, B16 allows black to live in sente, but it strengthens white so that white's wall truly becomes influence - hard to attack.

Without the B16 exchange, white could play there in sente, so black should still do something. That's why black pushes one more time like this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Black still usually gets sente, and the white wall is NOT yet strong. And at least AlphaGo master didn't really treat it as influence.

A famous example can be seen from this game between AlphaGo master and Kim Jiseok (master is black):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X . O O . O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X X O . . X . . , X . . X . X . O . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . O O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . W . . . X . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Kim Jiseok played the marked extension to extend from his "influence". And how did master respond?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X . O O . O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X X O . . X . . , X . . X . X . O . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . O O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X W . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X W 4 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X W . . . 1 . O . . . X . , X . . |
$$ | . . X W . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Suddenly, the marked white "influence" doesn't seem so much like influence, anymore. Admittedly, in this case, the marked black stone seems to play a role in making white weak. But nonetheless, black was able to take sente and capitalize on it, whereas white didn't get that much in exchange.

Imagine, instead, if black had played the hane, instead:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X . O O . O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X X O . . X . . , X . . X . X . O . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . O O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . W . . . X . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Maybe white can even go further than the marked stone, because white's influence is much harder to attack.

So as a general principle, it seems to be good for black to extend one more time on the 2nd line - black lives in sente, and the white "influence" at the very least, isn't that strong compared to the traditional joseki.

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This post by Kirby was liked by 2 people: DeprivedWaste, Fllecha
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Post #16 Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:54 pm 
Gosei

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Joaz Banbeck wrote:
At move 24, B16 is dual sente

[...]

There is no point in running along the 18th rank any further. You need to go two moves before you tenuki, so that the turn is not atari, like this:

[...]

But three moves gives him unnecessary influence:

[...]

This is the opposite of modern (post-2016) opening theory. You are a stronger player than I am, so you should do whatever you like, but it is useful to be aware of how strong players think about these positions these days.

The consensus is now that the :b1: - :w4: exchanges in your first diagram strengthen White far too much. Instead, strong players now generally push on the second line another time to make sure they are easily alive (as in your third diagram), then split on the left, claiming that White's "wall" is not actually that strong. One key point is that Black can peep at E15 in sente, helping his splitting group and worsening White's shape. (The strongest players/AIs often don't even split right away, claiming there are bigger moves elsewhere! That is too crazy for me.)

In fact, your third diagram is considered to be so good for Black that White generally doesn't play the hane at E17 anymore except in special circumstances, usually playing the keima at F17 or the extend at E16 instead.

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Post #17 Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:22 pm 
Tengen
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Damn computers! :grumpy:


This post by Joaz Banbeck was liked by 3 people: DeprivedWaste, dfan, yoyoma
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Post #18 Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:36 pm 
Dies in gote

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I sadly don't have time right now for a long response, but I just wanted to share this with y'all (a bit of history of the development of the 3-3 invasion after AlphaGo's emergence)

https://www.eurogofed.org/?id=127

Quotes:

"(...) Ever since, 3-3 has established itself as another option to deal with a hoshi. Numerous pros have been experimenting with 3-3, with the general idea to give the opponent a wall while ending in sente to play an extension that restricts the wall. The position below is one such example. (...)"
-
"This changed when Li Zhe 6p famously proclaimed that the 3-3 invasion's function was actually to rob the hoshi of its base, and that a simple kakari instead would be too easy on the hoshi.

Li Zhe demonstrated this impressively by invading at move 7 vs. Li Xuanhao 6p."

I hope someone finds the article as interesting as I did! I got to get going now :cry:

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Post #19 Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:48 pm 
Dies in gote

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Played not that much today, so I went over another game with LZ. This time from the IGS GoPanda2 server, where I play at the moment around 1k? (I so far have only played 11 games on it and stand on 8 wins and 3 defeats) I played black and it was again with Canadian Byo-yomi, if I recall correctly, but this time with slightly longer settings than usual.

I found my opponent through the automatch feature and was pleasently surprised when I saw that it was someone from my country, that had not happened before on IGS. So I was quite excited to play him.

I feel the playstyle on IGS, at least subjectively extrapolated from the 11 games I have played at my rank, is very different than from KGS, OGS or the Fox Go Server. It is more unfethered from the AI influence, which might be a strength or weakness, and more creative than KGS (I feel the players on KGS are also somewhat less influenced by AI than for example the players from OGS, but not as creative as IGS players, and instead play more old-styled fuseki and joseki (I have to admit I hate chinese fuseki and need to study it more) and Fox Go is a totally different beast.

I honestly like to play on IGS very much, simply because I like the UI so much, but sometimes I have a hard time to find a game, maybe I need to challenge individual players directly, instead of using the automatch feature.

As for my study regime, today I barely did any tsumego (after posting I'll still do a few before heading to bed) but the internet go school and studying / memorizing pro games is progressing as always, and I will hopefully find time this week to again attend my local go club.



I am not that proud of the games ending, I didn't like how I handled the top even though white messed up at the end, or how I reduced the bottom (I want to take a closer look at a later point with LZ, if someone has some suggestions I would gladly hear them) the same counts for whites invasion. I think black played very slack towards the end, I was not reading deep enough when I played the peep at the bottom, which I think lead to suboptimal play.


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Post #20 Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:02 am 
Dies in gote

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I played 2-3 games right now (I should have played only two and taken a bit of time to study and do for example tsumego), anyway I lost all of them.

I have to admit I have quite the losing streak at the moment on OGS, and I don't know when it will get better, so I really wanted to get ahead, win this game and squash my losing streak especially because it was against an OGS 2D.

Alas I had a chance in the game because white choose to play an early endgame move in a tense situation, I even knew it was a mistake in the game, I knew I could pull ahead if played it somewhat right, but as you know it did not work out, because like I said before, I lost all my games.

Even after messing it up, I had still the chance to at least pull even with white with a very obvious move (S17), a move I saw, a move that looked honte, it looked beautiful in its simplicity, a move the old masters would have played and the old amateurs, but of course I messed that up too and white got a good chunk out of the corner that should only have been shared, because I choose to play a move in the centre instead. Shortly after I resigned.



I played black.


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