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 Post subject: Re: Shogi
Post #81 Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2021 5:59 am 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
What is "tsugi no itte", please?

See also my reply: https://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=18266


"Tsugi no itte" means "the next move." I haven't studied too deeply yet, but it seems like books in this genre have a great variety of whole-board problems.

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 Post subject: Game 30
Post #82 Posted: Thu May 05, 2022 5:27 am 
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Game 30

I'm going to try something different. I think my opening practice has improved my opening a lot. I'd like to see similar improvements to my midgame and endgame. However, playing a full game would be a bit tedious if I want to focus on e.g. endgame. So I would like to start my games from later positions.

Instead of starting from a different midgame or endgame position every time, however, I want to play repeatedly from the same starting position until I see major improvement. Then I will move on to a different starting position.

I've used KataGo to generate the following game. By the way, this is using stone scoring rules (i.e. with group tax), so the strategy is a bit different compared to modern Japanese or Chinese rules. If you're studying along with me, just beware as the lessons may not translate perfectly to games without group tax.



My study plan from here is as follows:
  1. Memorize this kifu (I'm up to about move 160 so far)
  2. Post an initial review of the game, including effects of group tax
  3. Split the game into sections of about 30–40 moves each (opening, early midgame, etc.)
  4. Play two mini-games (one as black, one as white) from the starting position of each section, against an AI, stopping after 30-40 moves
  5. Maybe post some review highlights from these games
  6. Calculate my total point loss, averaged over the black and white games
  7. Determine a goal (i.e. total point loss below some value x)
  8. Play mini-games, focusing on one game section at a time, until the goal is reached


This post by hakuseki was liked by: johnsmith
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 Post subject: Game 30 comments
Post #83 Posted: Sat May 07, 2022 5:54 am 
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OK, here are some initial comments on game 30. I had a few unresolved questions; perhaps I will gain some insight into them in my follow-up studies. If anyone else would like to comment, I'd be equally happy to receive either helpful analysis or additional questions (which I may keep in the back of my mind as I continue to study this kifu).


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 Post subject: Game 30 stages
Post #84 Posted: Sat May 07, 2022 4:53 pm 
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I'll split the game into the following stages:
Code:
initial moves: 1–4
opening: 5–46
late opening/early midgame: 47–80
midgame: 81–111
ōyose: 112–145
early endgame: 146–174
endgame: 175–210
late endgame and dame: 211–243

The diagonal fuseki used in moves 1–4 was a prescribed opening in ancient Chinese Go. White also had the first move in those days, but I have not bothered to replicate that here. Anyway, I want to focus on this diagonal opening so I will start my practice games from move 5.

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 Post subject: Game 31
Post #85 Posted: Sat May 07, 2022 5:46 pm 
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I played this opening up to move 45 as black. This game was played with group tax, so opening theory is slightly different than in modern Go without group tax. I lost 6.9 points in this opening.

Game 31, position 1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc :b5: is not joseki
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . e . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . 2 . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Analogously to answering a large knight's move with a large knight's move, I thought I'd try answering white's two-space jump with a two-space jump of my own. However, this does not seem to be a joseki. Any of a, b, c, or d is preferable; e is also not bad if I want to play a move close to the one I played.

Game 31, position 2
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Black's move seems crude
$$ --------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . a X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ , . . . O . O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------[/go]

After :w1:, I wanted to help my touched stone, but I thought a would be too heavy. I tried :b2:. Actually, tenuki may be best, but the following local variation is also okay:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Making shape locally
$$ , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 6 . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . 4 . 1 2 . |
$$ , . . . O 5 O . 3 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------[/go]


Game 31, position 3
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Should black play a or b?
$$ | . . . O . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . a 4 3 . . . . . .
$$ | . 5 1 X . . . . . ,
$$ | . b 2 . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ --------------------[/go]

Should black continue at a or b?

I did read that a seems to work. However, by this point in the game a ko fight was developing elsewhere, and I worried that a would leave white too many threats, so I played b. This was a mistake, as a is really a much stronger move.

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 Post subject: Game 32
Post #86 Posted: Sun May 08, 2022 5:39 am 
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I played this game from move 47 up to move 79 as black, and lost about 5.9 points. Actually, I played a bit further and made a large mistake on move 81; however, since my study plan calls for this playout to cover moves 47–80, I am not including that mistake in this review. I will add it to my problem collection instead.

Game 32, position 1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc White clamps at :w4:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . X O X . . . X O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . X , . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . 3 . . . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X X 2 . . . , . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . 5 O . 1 . . . X O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . a 4 X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I expected white to push through with :w4: at :b5:, but instead white played this clamp. I thought this move looked like a mistake, but it's only losing about 0.3 points. I felt pretty unsure about my response at :b5:, but it is actually okay; a is slightly worse and reverts to the same sequence as if :w4: at :b5:.

Game 32, position 2
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Several mistakes
$$ | . . X , . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X 4 . . . . .
$$ | . . a 1 2 3 . . . .
$$ | . . . . b O . X . .
$$ | . . . X X O . . . ,
$$ | . . c . X O . X . .
$$ | . . 6 O X O . . . .
$$ | . . . . 5 . . . . .
$$ --------------------[/go]

With :b2:, black's group is too thin; black should defend at a instead. By reinforcing in this way, black would be strong enough to play :b6:; but since black did not play a in the game, :b6: is too weak and black should have played at c instead.
:w3: is also a mistake. White should push through at b and fight.

Game 32, position 3
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc More mistakes
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . X O X . . . X O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . X , . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O X O . a 1 3 . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . X . 2 . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . X , . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . X . O . X O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O . O X . . . . . . b . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

After :w1:, I considered cutting off white's stone by playing at a, but I thought the fight might be bad for me so I played :b2: instead. Black's bottom group is a bit weak after :w3:, which I think increases the value of b, so :b4: instead of b is also a mistake.

Variation
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Territory
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 5 7 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . O 3 4 6 8 . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O X O . 2 1 . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . X . . . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . X , . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . X . O . X O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black can build some pretty nice territory by cutting with :b2: and :b4: instead.

Game 32, position 4
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White's sagari
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . b . d 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . X O X . . . X O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . X , . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . c . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . O . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O X O . . O O . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . X . X . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . X , . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . X . O . X O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 1 O a . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

After :w1: :b2:, white tenukis with :w3:. This inconsistent play is not great for white, but what should black do?

Actually, capturing three stones with a would be a fine move for black, even though white will be able to live on the top.

My move was b, but this is losing 1.4 points and is worse than c or d. I was only thinking of ensuring :w3: dies while preserving territory on the top, but this would allow white to aim for the center:

Variation b
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc White's center-facing wall
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . a O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . X O X 3 7 . X O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . O X 5 X 2 6 . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . 4 . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |[/go]

By playing like this, white may profit from black's slack move at :b1:. In the game, white played at a instead of :w8:, which is a mistake. There will be a followup post about this in my problem collection thread.

Variation c
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Tiger's mouth
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . a . . W . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . X W X d . . X O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . X , c . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . b . 1 . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |[/go]

With :b1:, black maintains access to the center. This is more important than capturing the marked stones. For example, a white move at a may simply be ignored. White moves such as b, c, or d, however, which threaten the connection of black's top groups or access to the center, would merit some response.

Variation d
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc White 10, black 11 at a, b
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 1 W 6 9 7 . b . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . X W X a 8 . X O O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . X 2 4 . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . 5 3 . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |[/go]

This :b1: is not the best move, but I include it because it is the best move with a similar intention to the move I played. The sequence shown here is not white's best sequence, but is simply showing how black might deal with some white overplays. If white cuts at :w2:, black maintains access to the center with :b3: and :b5:. White should now sacrifice the two marked stones, but if they stubbornly cling to life, black may kill white's corner instead with the sequence to b.

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 Post subject: Game 33
Post #87 Posted: Mon May 09, 2022 6:49 am 
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I played this game from move 81 to move 111 as black. I lost about 16.8 points.

Game 33, position 1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Initial position and first moves
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . X O X . . . X O O X O . |
$$ | . . d O . O X . X , . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . 1 2 . O . . . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . a . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . b O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . O X , . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O O X X . . X O X . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . O . O X . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

My initial move :b1: is copied directly from KataGo's game. In that game, white responded at d, but this time my opponent played :w2:.
At this point, black might tenuki to play a big move elsewhere, like a or b. The local move c is good, but I thought this might be aji keshi, so I played d. I think this was pretty bad thinking. It's clear that black has worse shape problems than white, so playing c to solidify both sides benefits black more.

Here's the local continuation. Actually, many moves elsewhere were interposed in this sequence, but I omit those here and show the local sequence only, in which black and white did play alternating moves.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Continuation
$$ --------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 5 8 a X . . . .
$$ | . 3 2 7 O X . X O X
$$ | . . 1 O . O X . X ,
$$ | . . X O . O . . . .
$$ | . 6 4 . . . . . . .
$$ | . X O X O . . . . .
$$ | . X . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X , . . . . . ,[/go]

I've mentioned :b1: was a mistake.
:b5: would be better placed at :w6:. Actually, under modern rules either move is viable. However, since I am playing with group tax, I should prefer the move that keeps my stones connected.
:b9: was played at :w2:, but this is living small in gote. It would have been better to play at a and fight the ko.

Game 33, position 2
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Initial position and first moves
$$ --------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X O 1 . 2 3 . |
$$ X . . . X O O X O . |
$$ , . . . X . X O O . |
$$ . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ . . . . . . c O . . |
$$ . . . . b . X 5 . . |
$$ . . . . . . 4 O . . |
$$ . . O . . . a . . . |
$$ , . . . . . O . . . |[/go]

Again I copied KataGo's move with :b4:. In the kifu I studied, white responded at a, but my opponent played :w5: instead.
Now black's shape has a defect. I chose to repair it with a solid connection at c. This is fine, but b may be very slightly better, and generally I think the shape looks much nicer, so I wish I had played b.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Continuation -- no black mistakes yet
$$ --------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X O O . X O . |
$$ X . . . X O O X O . |
$$ , . . . X 4 X O O . |
$$ . . . . 5 8 X X X . |
$$ . . . . . 9 1 O . . |
$$ . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ . 6 3 . . . X O . . |
$$ . . O 7 . . 2 . . . |
$$ , . . . . . O . . . |[/go]


Game 33, position 3
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Continuation
$$ --------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X O O . X O . |
$$ X . . . X O O X O . |
$$ , . . . X O X O O . |
$$ . . . . X O X X X . |
$$ . . . a 1 X X O . . |
$$ . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ . O X b . . X O . . |
$$ . . O X . . O . . . |
$$ , . . . . . O . . . |[/go]

White's cutting stone is poised to cause great trouble for black. I basically ignored it to play b, perhaps thinking this was some kind of sente move, and I could come back and capture the cutting stone. My opponent even let me get away with this somewhat. But if white simply extends at a then black is cut to pieces. Black must prevent this by playing a immediately.

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 Post subject: Game 34
Post #88 Posted: Tue May 10, 2022 6:19 am 
Dies with sente

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Game 34 notes

I played moves 112–145 as black and lost 11.7 points. This was the ōyose stage of the game. I'm not bothering with a detailed review of this playout for now, but I have a couple quick comments:

First, recall this sagari I played in game 33:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Sagari at :b2:
$$ --------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X O 1 . 2 3 . |
$$ X . . . X O O X O . |
$$ , . . . X . X O O . |
$$ . . . . . . X X X a |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . O . . . |[/go]

After this exchange, a descent at a is no longer a threat to white's corner. So black should omit :b2:. I didn't really notice this even during the review of game 33 and ended up repeating the mistake in this game.

Pseudo-miai values (coin values)

Aside from this, in game 34 I made several mistakes in judging the value of moves. This brought to mind an earlier project of mine called Miai values in the opening.

(As pointed out by both Mr. Jasiek and Mr. Spight, the values I elicited from KataGo do not fit the definition of miai values. I will instead call them "coin values" for the time being.)

I analyzed my mistakes from this game in terms of coin values. For each mistake I chose a nice-looking move suggested by KataGo and evaluated the coin values for my move and KataGo's move. In two cases my move had a higher coin value. These two moves account for 1.6 points lost. So I could have impoved by score by 10.1 points by playing KataGo's suggestions which had higher coin values.

I acknowledge this experiment could have been more scientific, as I only bothered checking the moves where I made a mistake, and only compared them against good moves chosen by KataGo. Still I'm quite convinced that coin values can be an effective heuristic for comparing gote moves in different regions of the board (which pretty much describes the ōyose problems in this particular game).

Therefore I am planning to continue investigating coin values. My current plan has two components:

:b1: Evaluate the usefulness of coin values. To do this I will put together a collection of test positions. These must be calm positions as I do not intend to use coin values as a heuristic when fighting. For each position, I will list the moves that seem plausible to me, and also choose a single move which I would play. Then I will compute coin values for each plausible move, and calculate the average point gain (or loss) of the moves with the highest coin value compared to the moves chosen by my intuition. This experiment will tell me whether coin values are a better heuristic than my current intuition for these kinds of positions.

:w2: Develop an intuition for coin values. I will do this by putting together a set of estimation problems. The task will be to guess the coin value of a given move in its whole board context. I believe I can control the problem difficulty somewhat by arranging the problems into sets with different value distributions. For example, an easy problem set might only include moves with values very close to either 4, 8, or 12 points (±0.1 points, for example). I would hope it's relatively easy to distinguish moves of small, medium, and large size like this. A more difficult problem set might contain values close to any even number, or any whole number, and so on.

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Post #89 Posted: Fri May 13, 2022 8:43 pm 
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I've played through the endgame. I made some mistakes, but I don't think the detailed writeup is very interesting. Here are my overall statistics:
Code:
Stage                       Moves     Loss
initial moves               1–4        N/A
opening                     5–46       6.9
late opening/early midgame  47–80      5.9
midgame                     81–111    16.8
ōyose                       112–145   11.7
early endgame               146–174   11.1
endgame                     175–210    8.5
late endgame and dame       211–243   -2.8
TOTAL                       1-243     58.1

In the late endgame I actually gained points (in terms of KataGo's evaluation). Still I did make a mistake that I think warrants a remark, if not a diagram, simply because it is a novel concept to me: with an odd number of dame on the board, I chose to connect a simple ko instead of filling a dame. This would have been correct under Japanese rules, but, given that I had a surplus of ko threats, it turned out to be a mistake with stone scoring (which is similar to area scoring in this regard).

Throughout the entire game I lost 58.1 points. Next, I must play through the game as white before deciding my improvement goals. Still I have two ideas for improvement goals:
:b1: Reduce my mistakes by 28 points. This is roughly equivalent to two handicap stones, which is also suggestive of gaining two stones of strength. I'm not sure how well this skill would generalize beyond the special starting positions I'm using, or from AI to human opponents, but even 25% of two stones in strength would be very significant.
:w2: Reduce my mistakes by a factor of two. In this case that would mean reducing my mistakes by about 29 points, which is nearly the same as :b1:. Abstractly, a factor of 2 might make more sense than a fixed point-value improvement like 28, as some games are much messier than others, and I should expect that more improvement is possible in such messy games.

Anyway, I have already played the next opening as white, so I will move on to writing up some joseki mistakes next.

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 Post subject: Game 35
Post #90 Posted: Fri May 13, 2022 9:22 pm 
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I played moves 5–46 as white and lost 19.2 points. Most of this occurred in one corner, so I will discuss that joseki here. This game was played with group tax, which means the joseki are a bit different from those seen in more typical rule sets.

Game 35, position 1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc :b3: and :b5: elsewhere
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . 6 . O . . . |
$$ . 4 . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------[/go]

So far, this matches the upper-left corner of the KataGo vs. KataGo game I am studying.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Should white play a or b?
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . d . . . |
$$ . . . . . . c O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . b . . . . . |
$$ , . . 1 O . O . . . |
$$ . O . a X . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------[/go]

If black had exchanged c for d before playing the hane at :b1:, then white would nobi at b. However, since black played the hane at :b1: directly, white should cut immediately at a. My move was b which lost about 0.7 points.

Game 35, position 2
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Should white play a or b?
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ , . . X O . O a . . |
$$ . O . 3 X 4 2 . . . |
$$ . . . b . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------[/go]

It doesn't take much reading to verify that the :w3: stone is safe. White should play at a as this is the larger side. Instead I chose b which allowed black to hane at a. This was a 3.2-point mistake.

Game 35, position 3
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Should white play a or b?
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O . b a . . |
$$ , . . X O . O 2 . . |
$$ . O . O X X X . . . |
$$ . . . 1 . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------[/go]

Here I thought a looks more severe. I checked carefully that black could not capture any of my stones, and then went ahead and played a. However, black still got a strong corner and I ended up with a lot of weak points. The stronger move would have been b. This was a 2.1-point mistake.

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Post #91 Posted: Sat May 14, 2022 5:29 am 
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hakuseki wrote:
I've played through the endgame. I made some mistakes, but I don't think the detailed writeup is very interesting. Here are my overall statistics:
Code:
Stage                       Moves     Loss
initial moves               1–4        N/A
opening                     5–46       6.9
late opening/early midgame  47–80      5.9
midgame                     81–111    16.8
ōyose                       112–145   11.7
early endgame               146–174   11.1
endgame                     175–210    8.5
late endgame and dame       211–243   -2.8
TOTAL                       1-243     58.1



When you say things like "I played moves 112–145 as black and lost 11.7 points" what does this exactly mean? It appears to be the numbers that you report in the table but it is unclear to me if (and why) you play about 40 moves at a time, check the score evaluation and do a review before playing 40 more moves. It would appear that at move 122 it is a position from a game that you have stopped a few times to review and study the computer critique, or how does this work?

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Post #92 Posted: Sat May 14, 2022 5:50 am 
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kvasir wrote:
When you say things like "I played moves 112–145 as black and lost 11.7 points" what does this exactly mean? It appears to be the numbers that you report in the table but it is unclear to me if (and why) you play about 40 moves at a time, check the score evaluation and do a review before playing 40 more moves. It would appear that at move 122 it is a position from a game that you have stopped a few times to review and study the computer critique, or how does this work?

I am following the study plan I outlined in this post: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?p ... 2c#p272857

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Post #93 Posted: Sat May 14, 2022 6:02 am 
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kvasir wrote:
When you say things like "I played moves 112–145 as black and lost 11.7 points" what does this exactly mean?


Sorry, I should clarify this a bit more. When I review my game in KaTrain, it shows a "point loss" for each move. For example, in my review I might mention that a move is a "2.1-point mistake." This is based on KataGo's evaluation as displayed in KaTrain.

My total point loss is calculated by adding up the loss for every single move. Sometimes a move may have a positive score, which will reduce the point loss slightly. However, most of my moves get a negative score and increase the point loss.

As this implies, the opponent's mistakes have no direct effect on my point loss. So I can lose many points and still win the game, provided my opponent is losing even more points. However, for study purposes, I do not care about winning or losing. I only care about minimizing my point loss.

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Post #94 Posted: Sat May 14, 2022 6:39 am 
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By the way, I've finished my first playthrough as white now. My total loss was 78.7 points. This is worse than my result as black. I wonder if I'm having a bad day? Or perhaps it is just random variation. Anyway, my average is now 68.4 points lost.

Based on these results, I think I will set two goals. My true goal is to have a total loss of 29 points or less; my fallback goal is to have a total loss of 40 points or less.

The true goal is half of my better result out of my first two games; the fallback goal is about 28 points better than my average result. Regardless of whether I reach either goal, I may decide to continue studying this game as long as I am seeing good progress, or terminate the study early if I am not making progress.

I said I will focus on one section of the game at a time. Overall, I made the most mistakes in the midgame section covering moves 81–111, so starting there might make the most sense. However, the difference between sections is actually not so big, and I think it might be more exciting to start with the endgame and work my way back towards the beginning. Perhaps that is what I'll try.

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Post #95 Posted: Sat May 14, 2022 10:11 pm 
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Today I've been playing some late endgames.

Although I managed a positive score the first couple times, this has not been the pattern generally. Thankfully I have not made major blunders (except once); however, often my opponent makes some mistake that I fail to exploit, or exploit only partially.

Normally I don't expect my AI opponent to make a lot of mistakes, but the late endgame actually seems to be a bit of a weak point for the Policy Weighted AI in KaTrain.

I think this can be good training for me. I need to always be vigilant for my opponent's mistakes, and extract every possible point from them when they occur.

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 Post subject: Game 36
Post #96 Posted: Sun May 15, 2022 10:03 am 
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Here's my largest late endgame mistake so far.

Game 36, position 1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc White's mistake
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . O X X X . . . . . . . X O O . O . |
$$ | . O O X O X . . X . . . X 2 X O O X . |
$$ | . O X X O X X X . X . . . X O O . O . |
$$ | O O O O O O X O X X O . X X X X O O . |
$$ | O X X O . O O O O X X X O . . X X X X |
$$ | X . X X O . . O X X O O O X . . O X O |
$$ | . X . X O . . O O X O X X X . X X O . |
$$ | . X X O O . . . X O O X X O . X O O O |
$$ | . X . X . O . . . . O O X . X O . O . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . O O X O . X X O X . . |
$$ | . . . X O O . . O X X X . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . X O X O . O O X . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . O O X . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X O O O . O X . . . X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . O X , . . X . 1 O . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O O X X X X X . X O . . . . |
$$ | X O X O . O . O X O X O X X O O . . . |
$$ | . O O . O . . O O O O O . X X O . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

After :b1:, white's lower right corner looks a bit thin. However, I read one sequence, and decided black couldn't do anything, so although still slightly nervous, I played :w2:. Here's the sequence I read:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc :w6: at the marked stone
$$ --------------------
$$ . . . . X O O . O . |
$$ . . . X O . O O X . |
$$ X . . . X O O . O . |
$$ X O . X X X X O O . |
$$ X X X O . . X X X X |
$$ X O O O X . . O X O |
$$ X O X X X . X X O . |
$$ O O X X O . X O O O |
$$ . O O X . X O . O . |
$$ , O X X X O O O 2 7 |
$$ O X O . X X O X 1 . |
$$ X X X . . X X O 5 . |
$$ O X . . X O X O 3 . |
$$ X . . . X O O B 4 . |
$$ X . . . X X O O . . |
$$ , . . X . X O . . . |
$$ X X X . X O . . . . |
$$ O X O X X O O . . . |
$$ O O O . X X O . . . |
$$ --------------------[/go]

Black doesn't have enough liberties to capture white's one-eye group. White can even ignore :b7:. So I thought this was okay.

Here's black's actual attack:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc A working attack
$$ --------------------
$$ . . . . X O O . O . |
$$ . . . X O . O O X . |
$$ X . . . X O O . O . |
$$ X O . X X X X O O . |
$$ X X X O . . X X X X |
$$ X O O O X . . O X O |
$$ X O X X X . X X O . |
$$ O O X X O . X O O O |
$$ . O O X . X O . O . |
$$ , O X X X O O O 2 . |
$$ O X O . X X O X 1 . |
$$ X X X . . X X O 4 . |
$$ O X . . X O X O . . |
$$ X . . . X O O X 3 . |
$$ X . . . X X O O . . |
$$ , . . X . X O . . . |
$$ X X X . X O . 5 . . |
$$ O X O X X O O . . . |
$$ O O O . X X O . . . |
$$ --------------------[/go]

White cannot save the entire corner now. At least 23 points are lost. I lost even more in the actual game.

The misread is one thing, but I am also interested in the bad thinking habit this surfaces. When I played :w2: in the first diagram I did so with some nervousness. I think subjectively, I was only about 70% confident that my lower right group was safe.

Actually, in that kind of situation I should keep reading out more sequences. But I also think that, at the end of all my reading, if I still think there is only a 70% chance that my group is safe, I should play a defensive move. I should use the concept of "expected value" to play the subjectively best move in my estimation, rather than simply playing the move I judge most likely to be optimal.

This was not always my approach to Go, but I have come over to this view within the last couple years. However, I still have many bad habits.

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 Post subject: Re: Opening study with KataGo
Post #97 Posted: Tue May 17, 2022 1:08 pm 
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hakuseki wrote:
Sorry, I should clarify this a bit more. When I review my game in KaTrain, it shows a "point loss" for each move. For example, in my review I might mention that a move is a "2.1-point mistake." This is based on KataGo's evaluation as displayed in KaTrain.


OK, I get it. My other question is why start from different positions in the same game, it seems to risk that you get familiar with that game first and then play from the positions with a better idea how to play. Anyway, it is an interesting approach to play certain number of moves from the same position and repeat until you get a hang of it. I think I might try that myself.

BTW it might be easier (or more interesting) to follow your thread if you can post the SGFs or diagrams showing how the playout actually went. I find myself confused by the half- and quarter-board diagrams because many things are playable in isolation. If you don't want to share I understand that too, playing the computer can be embarrassing :D

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Post #98 Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2022 6:04 am 
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I've played the equivalent of 10 games now, starting from various positions of this kifu I'm studying. And so far I've seen no net improvement! My average score has actually gotten worse, but only by 0.037, which I guess is not significant.

Here are my updated average statistics:
Code:
Stage                       Moves     Loss
initial moves               1–4        N/A
opening                     5–46     13.53
late opening/early midgame  47–80    13.41
midgame                     81–111   13.33
ōyose                       112–145   9.87
early endgame               146–174   7.24
endgame                     175–210   5.11
late endgame and dame       211–243   5.95
TOTAL                       1-243    68.44


Based on these statistics, I guess the opening is as good a focus as any for now. I think I will need a more concrete plan to improve, as just playing games and reviewing has not been enough.

I think I will try coming up with some kind of checklist or flowchart to follow in the opening. Then I will actually write down my notes for each move as I play it, to make sure I am actually following the steps.

Perhaps I can develop this flowchart by re-examining these last 10 openings. I will ask myself what reasoning steps I could have taken to avoid each mistake. Then I will edit the most commonly recurring steps down into a flowchart.

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Post #99 Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2022 6:16 am 
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Good news: I made a checklist, then I played ten more openings. This time my average point loss was 11.03 points, which is an improvement of 2.5 points!

Bad news: I didn't actually use my checklist very much. It's just too long and annoying. Here it is, for the curious:
(note: the forum somehow messed up the indentation on this, even though it's inside a code block)

Code:
1. Review the opponent's move.
  -> did they ignore a peep or cutting point?
     -> think about cutting. Read variations.
  -> did they extend on the 4th line?
     -> think about knight's move approach

2. If it were my opponent's turn now, what moves would they consider?

3. Decide what move I want to play. Use lots of intuition and reading.

4. Review my move idea.
  -> Is it a big move, an urgent or fighting move, or a joseki move?
     -> big move
   -> Am I sure there's no urgent move?
      -> Are there any contacting stones or cutting points?
      -> Are there any weak groups?
   -> What do I think the coin value is?
     -> fighting move
   -> am I attacking or defending?
      -> attacking
         1 is this aji keshi?
         2 am I actually weakening an important group?
         3 can I attack from a different direction?
         4 am I surrounding? if so, can I make my opponent crawl instead?
         5 am I making good shape or bad shape?
       -> defending
         1 could my group be safe already?
         2 is this actually big enough to defend?
         3 can I fight back instead?
         4 am I making my group heavy?
       -> can I sacrifice it?
         5 am I between two enemy groups?
       -> can I kosumi out?
         6 can I make good shape?
       -> nozoki?
       -> tsuke?
   1 are there other fights on the board?
      -> does this fight involve more weak stones?
   2 did I read at least 3 moves deep?
   3 did I read all the obvious variations?
   4 did I find a move that's almost as good?
      -> have I searched for other options similar to that move?
     -> joseki move
   -> do I know this joseki well?
      -> no
         -> is this a fight? If so, go to fighting moves
         -> read several possibilities and variations at least 3 moves deep
  -> Is this move multipurpose?

5. Play my move.


I do think the process of making the checklist was instructive, at least. And I did use it a little bit.

Basically, in the ten openings I analyzed to produce this checklist (from the cross-hoshi starting position), I found that a lot of my mistakes had to do with fighting, especially with defense. Joseki mistakes were less of an issue.

In my newer set of 10, I am thankfully seeing slightly fewer mistakes overall. Reading during fights is still an issue, and sente seems like an issue. I also seem to have more joseki mistakes this time. I am now planning to repeat my analysis and produce a new checklist, and also some joseki diagrams.

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 Post subject: Joseki notes for games 37–46: Double Approach
Post #100 Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2022 8:56 pm 
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Joseki notes for games 37–46: double approach
(Note: these games were played with group tax, which affects opening strategy somewhat)

4-4 point, double approach, attachment
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc :b3: tenuki
$$ --------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . 4 . d c . . |
$$ , . . . . . 1 a . . |
$$ . . . . . . . e . . |
$$ . . . . . 7 5 2 . . |
$$ . . . . . . 6 b . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

If white plays a next, then black should check the ladder. If it works, then cutting at b is the best move. Otherwise, a move at c, d, or e is good enough.

However, in my game 37, white played elsewhere on the board instead of at a. In this case, blocking the corner with e is the best move, about 0.8 points better than cutting.

4-4 point double approach, knight's move
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc :w3: tenuki
$$ , . . . . . c . . . |
$$ . . . . . . e a . . |
$$ . . . . . . b d . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 5 . 2 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ . . . . 4 . . f . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------[/go]

:w5: seems strange, but KaTrain's Policy Weighted AI has been playing this move against me often.

When the board is mostly empty, an extension such as ae seems to be favored. The 3-3 invasion at f is evaluated at -0.56 points.

In other situations, e.g. where the sides are more crowded, the 3-3 invasion may be good. In game 37 I played the invasion although it was not favored. Let's look at the continuation:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black to play. a, b, or c?
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . 4 O 2 c . |
$$ . . . . X . 3 1 b . |
$$ . . . a . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------[/go]

First, let's look at c.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc -4.4 points
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . d . |
$$ , . . . . O O O 1 . |
$$ . . . . X 2 X X . . |
$$ . . . . 4 . . . 3 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------[/go]

I actually read this sequence out before playing :b1: and thought this result was OK. It was a failure of positional judgment. :b1: lost 3.4 points and :b3: lost 1 point (compared to d).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Better for black
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . O O O . . |
$$ . . . . X . X X b . |
$$ . . . 1 . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------[/go]

Black should instead play :b1:. Now white may tenuki or may play some side move like :w2:. :b1: at b is also acceptable and white's response will be similar.

4-4 point keima and ōgeima double approach
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Where should black play?
$$ | . . . , . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 4 a e . . . . .
$$ | . f . . . d . . . .
$$ | . . . 1 . c . . . ,
$$ | . . . . b . 2 . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ --------------------[/go]

At least in the context of my game 37, b was the only good option for black. It is also a good move against the :w2: approach, with or without the presence of :w4:.
The other marked points varied in evaluation from about -0.6 to -0.4. Of these, a and c seem the worst yet have high policy weight.

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