Status:
DAY 1 (April 8): 16k
DAY 4 (April 11): 15k
DAY 6 (April 14): 14k
DAY 9 (April 17): 13k
DAY 19 (April 27): 12k
DAY 43 (May 23): 11k
DAY 51 (June 1): 10k

TARGET DATE: June 8 2012


Hey everyone,

I'm new to forums, been reading it for a bit but thought I'd post my personal goal in this topic. I've played go off and on a few times, but this time I really want to stick with it, so I have made a personal goal. I am currently a 16k on KGS, and will achieve 9k in 60 days (June 8th). I think I can do it, and I want to post here to help keep track both for myself, and maybe get some help from you guys . I've been reading in this section and it seems you guys are a huge help.

I am reading books and doing go problems to help me achieve this goal. I am reading the Elementary Go Series, Play Go Against Strong Players and the Fundamentals of Go. I have so far finished Volume one of Elementary go (on openings), and I think it's been a huge help. I do go problems on go child.

I thought maybe I would start by posting my last game played (17k vs 17k), which brought me to 16k where I start this journey. It is a close game, but it was closer than it should have been. I made 3 major mistakes. The lesson I took from this game was that before each move, I should probably take another 5 seconds to think about it before making it.



Anyways, do you guys think I can do it? Let me know what you think, and if not, what can I do to be able to achieve this goal.

Thanks all!

Status:
DAY 1 (April 8): 16k
DAY 4 (April 11): 15k
DAY 6 (April 14): 14k
DAY 9 (April 17): 13k
DAY 19 (April 27): 12k
DAY 43 (May 23): 11k
DAY 51 (June 1): 10k

TARGET DATE: June 8 2012

Drewch,

I think that your goal is doable, but it will require changing your way of thinking about the game. I recommend that you play against play against people who already think differently than you, i. e., players 9 kyu and above.

Good luck!

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Welcome to the forums.

Can you make single digit kyu? In sixty days? Sure.

Post more games like this ( they will get better visibility in the 'game analysis' subforum ) , study the answers, and you'll do it easily. Heck, just the comments below are worth at least one stone.

================================================

Move 8: Why step into such a small space when the top side is available? I'd try K17 or L17.

EDIT: This extra room is more than just a difference of degree. When you get enough room, it is a different kind of room.

Experience has shown the the 2-space extension on the third line:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$---------------
$$ . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . .
$$ . . X . . X . .
$$ . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . .[/go]

...is almost always good for one eye. In other words, you are half alive already. See http://senseis.xmp.net/?TwoSpaceExtension, it is one of the building blocks for fuseki.

In your game, a play like this is guaranteed to have room for a two space extension:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc 'A' and 'b' are miai
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . a . . 1 . . b . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

In other words, if he tries to crowd you from one side, you extend the other way:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc A 2-space extension. Life should be easy.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . 3 . . 1 . . 2 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Not only is the top side bigger, it is almost a certainty that you can live there even against the most determined attack - because you can get a two space extension.


Move 14: This move allows your opponent too much. Remember, with R15, he has stated that he wants to make territory in the corner.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Grabbing corner territory
$$---------------
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . X B . . |
$$ . . O X O . . |
$$ . . . O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |[/go]

Compare it to a joseki like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$---------------
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . 1 . . . |
$$ . . . . a . . |
$$ . . 5 3 2 . . |
$$ . . . 4 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |[/go]

...which, instead of playing 'a' for territory, black goes for influence with

Either of these is joseki, and both have meaning. Your opponent has declared that he wants territory in the corner. So you have a choice: do you contest it, or do you go for the parts of the board that he is leaving open for you?

If you check the joseki books or web sites, you will find that the two most common responses by white fit exactly those two options:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc The most common play by white - letting black have territory, and taking influence for himself.
$$---------------
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . 1 . . . |
$$ . . . 7 5 . . |
$$ . . 6 3 2 . . |
$$ . . 8 4 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc The second most common play by white - contesting the territory.
$$---------------
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . 1 . . . |
$$ . . . 7 5 . . |
$$ . . 6 3 2 8 . |
$$ . . . 4 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |[/go]

Your move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$---------------
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . 1 . . . |
$$ . . . 7 5 . . |
$$ . . 6 3 2 B . |
$$ . . . 4 . . . |
$$ . . . . 8 . . |[/go]

...unfortunately does neither. Note that he can play S14, getting more of the territory that he wants, and he can do it in sente.


...it is brunch time here...more later...

_________________
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207

Yes, I think you can do it if you work hard at it.

If you're interested, here are some questions for you to think about for this game. Many of them are like the go problems you've been doing, but some require a little bit more judgment.

Move 68: You captured black's group in the game, that was very good. But can you see a more immediate way to do it here on this move?

Move 79: Do you need to respond to black?

Move 81: Do you need to respond to black?

Move 126, 128: You absolutely cannot let yourself be cut at K4. If black plays there (as on move 129), your shape is broken and what would have almost been fifth line territory becomes black's playground. This move is so important that objectively, it may even be best for black to ignore your peep and play there right away on move 127!

Move 137: There is a better move for *black* here. What is it?

Move 151: Do you need to respond to black?

Move 164: You can capture H9 here. How?

Move 174: This move is a mistake. It enables black to connect and make an attempt to live, as in the game. What would have been better?

Move 175: Besides connecting, Black also has another interesting response to move 174 that more directly shows that move 174 is a mistake. What is it?

Move 180: Connecting as in the game dies right away. You can do better. Can you see how?

Move 210: Black ignored you on move 206 to play this and threaten 2 of your stones. Rather than save them, you can capture 2 of black's stones *and* destroy a large chunk of blacks territory. How?

Move 226, Move 228: Where should you play instead?

Move 264: This is hopeless. Black's Q7 group has about 5 eyes. And K12 is connected to the upper left. Instead of this move, what are some places where you can squeeze out a few more endgame points?

Welcome, and good luck!

Best of luck Drewch, hit me up for a few games sometime on KGS.

Thanks, this is good to know. Looking back, it does look odd that I took that spot. I think my rational was hoping that he would go O17 or something, and then I could move down and attack his stone on the middle left. But .. that thinking is flawed I guess, mainly because he can use that same stone to put pressure on my white stone. Is that correct?

I have a follow up question about the two point jump as well:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Can I make a two jump point to a in this case?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . a . . B . . b . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

If White plays K17, can I play a, and if white plays F17, can I play b.

Or is this the closest case where the two point extension becomes no longer correct?

Thanks, I've played around on EidoGo for about 10 minutes going through the variations for this Joeseki
I won't make this mistake again!




Awsome, thanks a lot. Looking forward to it!

*Burp*

Move 24: This is thin. A two-space jump off of two stones is maybe ok in a sparsly populated environment, but with Q15 and Q16 nearby, it is too thin. He can push through with O15. The subsequent variations are complicated, but they seem to turn out well for black.

Moves 25&27&29: Dubious moves by black, but you have to exploit his weakness by playing N13 on move 30. Or...

Move 30: When you start attacking his corner with Q17, your stone is in too much danger. ( Stones have 4 liberties. When you play this stone next to an opponent's stone, it has 3 liberties. It is 1/4 dead already. )

If you really want to hurt his corner, the better way to do it is Q18. Then when he replies, you keep pushing in.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . 1 3 . . |
$$ . X O . . 2 . . |
$$ . X O . X . . . |
$$ . X O . X X . . |
$$ . . O O X O . . |
$$ . . . X O O . . |
$$ . . X X X O . . |
$$ . . . . O . . . |
$$ . . X . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Note that your stones are much healtier now ( more liberties ). And if he tries to stop you with 4:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . 1 3 4 . |
$$ . X O . . 2 a . |
$$ . X O . X . 5 . |
$$ . X O . X X b . |
$$ . . O O X O . . |
$$ . . . X O O . . |
$$ . . X X X O . . |
$$ . . . . O . . . |
$$ . . X . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]

You get the vital point with 5. ( See http://senseis.xmp.net/?VitalPoint )

Now 'a' and 'b' are miai. ( Again, SL is your friend: http://senseis.xmp.net/?Miai )

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . 1 3 4 . |
$$ . X O . . 2 6 . |
$$ . X O . X . 5 . |
$$ . X O . X X 7 . |
$$ . . O O X O . . |
$$ . . . X O O . . |
$$ . . X X X O . . |
$$ . . . . O . . . |
$$ . . X . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . 1 3 4 . |
$$ . X O . . 2 7 . |
$$ . X O . X . 5 . |
$$ . X O . X X 6 . |
$$ . . O O X O . . |
$$ . . . X O O . . |
$$ . . X X X O . . |
$$ . . . . O . . . |
$$ . . X . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]

_________________
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207

Yes, definitely interested. Thanks!



I don't see it in this case, if I don't make O13, but play to take away a liberty, and then he connects to one of his other stones (L16 or M18), then won't he play o13 after and kill my 3 stone group? I played it as many ways as I can think of, and from what I can see, I have to play O13 here or on my next move if I put him in atari in move 68.


I think so, or else won't I lose Q19 group?



No, I guess I can wait until he plays there one more time, I just wanted to be sure of killing his group rather than letting it come back alive. Something I need to stop doing as soon as possible.


Ah, your right, this was definitely a poor mistake, I am not sure what I was thinking. Thanks for pointing it out.


M2 would have been a great move for black


I responded to it with H2. I think it is a better response than responding directly to it at L2 or M3. In fact, if I respond directly at L2 or M3, then I lose some stones no matter what.

I'm curious to what you think about this, I thought H2 was actually my best response, by far. I don't think it can be completely ignored, and I don't think it should be responded with directly (l2 or m3).


Bah, this cost me a lot of points. G9!


Yes, another huge mistake. Perhaps I should have just played A12 to capture the stones I had in atari?
I thought it was fine at the time if he connects, because I did not realize my A14 group would be cut down to two liberties.



Wow! B4! Didn't even see that, that could have been awful.


A9/A7 ... Dang. What a tricky situation, good game to review. Lots of big mistakes by me


I can ignore and capture H18 and J18, but I think you have something bigger in mind, I can't see it though.


I'm not too sure, is there actually anything I could have done in there? I need to improve on that, most of my moves in there was just trying out random stuff, not thinking that anything would work. This doesn't cost me points does it? Only if he ignores right?


Probably T4 or B4, is there anything bigger?


Thanks, and thanks for the post!

Thanks, I added you to friends on KGS.

Great explanations, thanks!

Same here, I warn you though my hours are odd!

We're both fresh to 16k though so it should be interesting and we have rather different playstyles I think.

How about this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Short ladder
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . O X X X |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O . 3 1 X O . O X . O |
$$ | . . . X . . . . 5 4 X 2 X O . X . X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O O O X O . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X O X X X O O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X O O O . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X X . X X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |[/go]

Correct, so your move is fine. However, if you want to take a slightly more advanced view...




M2 is okay. But actually, I was thinking J4 or J6. Connecting here is much more important than saving the stone at K1. Notice that when black let you cut there, you eventually (after a few more errors by black) captured the entire group.


Your move is good, you are right that you do need to respond. But it's still a good habit to ask yourself this question frequently. If you have a sharp eye, you may find your opponents surprisingly often playing moves that don't actually threaten anything (77,81) or that don't threaten enough for you to care (47, 79).


No, capturing at A12 would be a waste of a move. You should only do it if black connects at A10.
The best move in this type of shape is to just extend at B4. Black's whole group is dead that way.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Black cannot get 2 eyes
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X O O . O O O O X X X |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O . . . . O X O X . O |
$$ | . . . X . . . X O O . O . O . X . X X |
$$ | . O X . . . . X O O O O . O . X X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . X X O . . . O O X O O . |
$$ | O X O . . . . . O X O O O O X O O . . |
$$ | 3 X O . . . . X X X X X . X X X O . . |
$$ | X O O O . O . O O . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | 2 X O , . . . O . , . . . . X , O . . |
$$ | . X O . . . X X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | 4 X O . . X O O X X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . X O X . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | 5 X O . X O X . O . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | X O . . X X O O O X X X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . 1 . O O O . . O X O O X X X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . O O X O O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O O . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

And yes, if you are ever trying to block a first-line hane like 173 and your stone (the one at B5) has only 2 liberties, you *must* check for the B4 cut tactic. If this tactic is possible, then you need to extend at least once at B4 before it becomes safe to block. Or, if the opponent is dead, as in this case, then you don't have to block ever. Just keep extending and letting Black crawl on the first line, since the whole thing is dead anyways.


No, capturing those is correct. A single move at G18 is sufficient. If black then captures your two stones, you can continue further wrecking black's upper left with E18. This trade is a disaster for black - black's territory is at least 10 points smaller now, and you've *gained* territory in the process at F19, G19, H19, J19, K19.


Yes, and when black ignored at 229 and broke into your right side, it did cost you a lot of points. Both 226 and 228 are better at S8.


B4 isn't worth anything, it's already your territory. But T4 is an excellent move. Also, J19 is worth a tiny bit.

Hope this helps. Also, in your quest to reach 9k, don't forget to have fun (I've made this mistake before). It's only worth doing as long as you're enjoying it!

I see Good point!



This is amazing advice...wow. Never thought about things in that way! Awsome.


Agreed

Again, something I never thought about, will incorporate into my game!


Thanks I see now.

Again, stuff I would have never thought about, much appreciated! I completely agree


Yes, I shouldn't have missed this point


Thanks so much, this is an AMAZING post, I've been reading it for quite some time to absorb it. Now I know what Bill Spight was talking about in post #2 when he said I will have to change the way I think.

I definitely am starting to see that already. I will try to get a few games in tomorrow.

Thanks a lot guys.

Hey mate definitely believe you can make your goal. I just hit 9kyu today and was about 16kyu 2 months ago .
I dont agree that you should be playing against people much higher rated (unless its a teaching game). Although the occasional game against someone higher than 9 kyu would be fine its probably better at each step to play people slightly higher rated, that way when you try out new things you can see how effective they are. You also wont get frustrated and constantly losing.

I think that doing go problems, playing a lot and experimenting with new ideas in your games (probably the most important) should help you improve.
Hopefully in 60 days you will have that weird experience of looking back on your games from now and not understanding what you were thinking.
Best of luck

I respectfully disagree, I think I've learned more about what mistakes are in my play from playing substantially higher rated players than playing against people close to my own rank. I don't get away with weaker moves so much and I learn a lot about good shape and big moves just by watching how they beat me and studying what point the game turned. I've never found constantly losing to much stronger players frustrating though. Getting absolutely crushed by an EGF 4k at the club on 9 stones made me re-evaluate my entire approach to handicap go for instance and go in general. Having stronger players resurrect a "lost" game by a series of big moves has taught me a lot about timing, efficiency and the need for whole board thinking. I think I learned more from a single 9x9 game where I lost to a 2k because of one local move too many by me, than from a dozen games against people my own rank where I get away with not making the biggest move.

Hey guys, I've played 2 games since Sunday, and a bunch of go problems. I beat a 13k with a 2 handicap as a 16k, so that bumped me to 15k.

You guys said I should post the game in Game Reviews instead of here, or should I post here as well? Anyways, here is a link to the game in Game Reviews: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5814

Feel free to let me know if you think there's some improvements I made, or can keep making.

Thanks!

Status:
DAY 1 (April 8): 16k
DAY 4 (April 11): 15k

Hey all, played another game vs a 12k, again, I lowered the handicap by 1. I won the game and got 14k ranking. The game went really well I think. I definitely got a lot more center moyo early game then I usually get. Here it is in case anyone wants to comment. Your comments are really helping me with my goal!

Thanks!



Status:
DAY 1 (April 8): 16k
DAY 4 (April 11): 15k
DAY 6 (April 14): 14k

_________________
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207

Thanks Joaz, love the comments! I really do need to stop thinking about individual situations and moves that I know work, and start thinking whole board. In some situations, you've pointed out that I've given away a lot of potential points. When I flip back between your move and my move in those comments, the board looks worldly different. It's amazing how one move made with the whole board mindset can completely change the look of the game.

Thanks again!

Round 2 of KGS tournament today ... unrated games unfortunately, but fun none the less. And it's against much stronger players usually.