Life In 19x19
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Games I played and stuff
http://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=7816		 Page 1 of 10
Author:  Unusedname [ Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Games I played and stuff
note-to-self: before each game look up a joseki and attempt to play it twice.

Lose every battle. Win the war.
a sloppy game. 10 was a misclick.
captured a very big group early

then I went on to lose every single fight.
and make a lot of bad plays...

since this is a study thread.

some things i don't understand.

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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


a) i saw a video and the commentator said this was the right shape. It happened while a group was running away and trying to survive.

idk when this would be better than the tiger mouth.
but I started playing it and my groups stopped dying.

magic!

b) I almost never consider the kosumi. Everytime it's time to jump out, i thoughtlessly play the one point jump.
I don't even know how to start evaluating this diagonal play vs. the jump.

c) extensions on the 4th line. I tell myself i'm going to experiment more with this but i never do.

d) the rest of the board. I don't understand this game at all.


I had some other thoughts but I always forget to write them down. Now they all go here before I have a chance to forget.

threads i don't want to lose.

http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=119514 - the kick
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=7764 - 3rd line atari

viewtopic.php?p=130667#p130667 eyespace


random quotes that were interesting to me.

Dusk Eagle wrote:
Read the article The Marginal Advantage by Day9. While written partially from a game development perspective, I think reading this article improved not just my Go but my ability in many competitive games I've played.


Bill Spight wrote:
That is good advice for winning games. I am not so sure how it is for learning to play. I now play a miai-ish style, which is very much like the Marginal Advantage approach. Whichever alternative you take, I take the other, and I am still happy. :) But I started out trying to kill everything. If I had started out trying to take a small advantage and leave miai, I doubt if I would have developed my attacking skills.


/////
I'd say I'm ahead if this is a komi game. Black sure has a lot of solid territory, but with no potential. He has seriously lost the general situation. -lovelove
///
The study of shape goes hand in hand with the study of tesuji. Often good shape prevents an opponent's tesuji, sometimes it threatens your own tesuji, or is tesuji itself.

Here is a rule of thumb that you can apply at your level. If one player or another has two more stones (or more) than the opponent in a local area, that may indicate inefficiency. As the game goes on, such situations are unavoidable, but the earlier in the game that it occurs, the more likely that the side with more stones is inefficient.

So if you already have one more stone in a local region than your opponent and you are thinking of playing another stone there, ask yourself whether you need to make that play now or whether there are bigger or better plays somewhere else. (OC, that rule of thumb does not apply when the opponent makes an invasion, for instance, because you start out with more stones than the opponent. :))

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=8058

-Bill


my style

2/12/13

I think I'm a territory player. I like having influence for fighting but I don't often aim for having moyos.


bats 2/18

Bat lecture

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSGHG01LJ4E

White splits a group and attacks a two space extension.

Avoids turning on two stones because that would have forced black to defend himself

sacrificed four stones on the left in order to be strong enough to attack on the right.


Attachments:
unusedname-keyaki2hon.sgf [5.41 KiB]
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Author:  lovelove [ Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Games I played and stuff
Short Comments



Attachments:
unusedname-keyaki2honddd.sgf [6.42 KiB]
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Author:  Unusedname [ Wed Feb 06, 2013 12:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Games I played and stuff
Will you please eviscerate all my poor games like that. Or was this just a special occasion.

Idk why but your disgusted comments made me want to play more games.
Author:  lovelove [ Wed Feb 06, 2013 12:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Games I played and stuff
Unusedname wrote:
Will you please eviscerate all my poor games like that. Or was this just a special occasion.

Idk why but your disgusted comments made me want to play more games.

That black was eviscerative, not you. I usually don't make game comments.
Author:  Unusedname [ Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Games I played and stuff
Well here's another one with lots of bad moves by both players :]



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unusedname-tsjt0906.sgf [4.47 KiB]
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Author:  EdLee [ Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:48 am ]
Post subject: 
Author:  Unusedname [ Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Games I played and stuff
lovelove wrote:
Short Comments


:w14: I was always under the impression that the 3-3 invasion is better when the K4 and Q10 extension are on the third line. But i'll keep that in mind from now on.

:w56: I didn't even realize this was a pass when i played but it seems obvious now.

:w52: :w62: Personally these feel like bad and very thin moves. Was there a better way to block off the center?

:w64: i think this should have been g15

it was nice you said I play like a 4kyu but a lot of games I feel like i'm the one who's the 14kyu

EdLee wrote:


:w14: I also thought up to here was a little strange.
:w22: the move you suggested is the move i thought of at first. I like it better too.
:w64: around here where you were suggesting to be more aggressive, I think I was getting scared and just wanted to take what was simple.
:w94: up to here i thought i had totally bunked my opportunity I was thinking I should have played :w90: at L17




again thank you both for the comments. I do appreciate them.
Author:  Bonobo [ Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Games I played and stuff
Unusedname wrote:
[..]

d) the rest of the board. I don't understand this game at all.

[..]
<like> :D
Author:  Unusedname [ Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Games I played and stuff
Plans fell through, so I had time for another game.


It didn't come up in the game but I knew there was something I could do here... I just didn't know what.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c This is a label for the diagram.
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


maybe some other time.

These games have been great for my morale. But I'm sure one will come to humble me soon.

Attachments:
DineshR-unusedname.sgf [3.14 KiB]
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Author:  EdLee [ Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:31 am ]
Post subject: 
Unusedname wrote:
:w64: around here where you were suggesting to be more aggressive, I think I was getting scared and just wanted to take what was simple.
Hmmm...? I thought :w64: connecting at J8 was the simpler version. :)
Author:  SoDesuNe [ Thu Feb 07, 2013 5:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Games I played and stuff
I'm not as strong as lovelove but here are a few comments from me : )
Author:  Unusedname [ Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re:
EdLee wrote:
Unusedname wrote:
:w64: around here where you were suggesting to be more aggressive, I think I was getting scared and just wanted to take what was simple.
Hmmm...? I thought :w64: connecting at J8 was the simpler version. :)


Well to me J8 looks like I'm still trying to catch the whole group which doesn't look possible anymore. So I just take what I can get.

J8 looks like the simple move, but I wanted the rest of the game to be simple not having to worry about chasing and cut points.

SoDesuNe wrote:
I'm not as strong as lovelove but here are a few comments from me : )


:b13: lol at 13 yeah... that bad part about it was I was actually a little happy about it because it was thick and I could extend along the bottom which is why I thought it was strange when you said...

:b19: How do you mean low? I'm on the fourth line and white can't push me under the fifth!
Or is low relative like I may be fifth line but white is sixth therefore i'm low?

:b23: isn't it too soon to play A.

:b25: I've seen A when I look at pro games, but I felt I would rather not let white settle easily in the corner and chase him around abit instead. but :w30: definitely made me feel I should have played differently hehe

:b33: Around here I was thinking of the peeps too and then I could also get G18 in sente. idk I just thought I should wait to see if a wedge was better, but instead I ended up waiting too long ._.

:b39: I don't like A and B here, I think if white jumps out he can escape easily.

:b49: I do not understand why the cap would be better. Can you explain your thoughts to me?

:b105: ugh I don't know why I didn't see this.

Anyways it's fine that you aren't as strong as lovelove, you're stronger then me! :D
Thank you for the comments. And I am curious why you think the cap would have been more appropriate then the shoulder hit.
Author:  SoDesuNe [ Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Re:
Unusedname wrote:
:b19: How do you mean low? I'm on the fourth line and white can't push me under the fifth!
Or is low relative like I may be fifth line but white is sixth therefore i'm low?


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
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$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . B X O , O . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Actually for me it's low because White got the marked exchange. White is already on top of you, so my feeling is this side can't become big for you.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . W . . . |
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$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . a , . . X X O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I believe it's possible for White to play :w4: here and Black can only push and cut as a response. But I guess the marked stone helps White fighting and any move for Black around 'a' would be again overconcentrated, so how to settle your two stones on the left when White becomes stronger in the center due to the fight?
I don't know, I don't feel comfortable in this position.

Unusedname wrote:
:b23: isn't it too soon to play A.


Puh, timing is always difficult but I think it would become a good move for White due to the above reasons.

Unusedname wrote:
:b39: I don't like A and B here, I think if white jumps out he can escape easily.


You mean with his lonely stone at the top? Don't you kill his other group then? Or at least you gain a lot of forcing moves, which should result in a thick shape from which you can attack White's stones in the middle then.

Unusedname wrote:
:b49: I do not understand why the cap would be better. Can you explain your thoughts to me?


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . X X . . . X . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . O . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O . O . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O . . . . . . 1 . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X X O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Hm, you are ahead of White in the center and you don't force White to strengthen himself in the process. This would be my reasoning : D
Author:  Unusedname [ Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Re:
SoDesuNe wrote:
Unusedname wrote:
:b19: How do you mean low? I'm on the fourth line and white can't push me under the fifth!
Or is low relative like I may be fifth line but white is sixth therefore i'm low?


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . B X O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Actually for me it's low because White got the marked exchange. White is already on top of you, so my feeling is this side can't become big for you.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . W . . . |
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$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . a , . . X X O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I believe it's possible for White to play :w4: here and Black can only push and cut as a response. But I guess the marked stone helps White fighting and any move for Black around 'a' would be again overconcentrated, so how to settle your two stones on the left when White becomes stronger in the center due to the fight?
I don't know, I don't feel comfortable in this position.

Unusedname wrote:
:b23: isn't it too soon to play A.


Puh, timing is always difficult but I think it would become a good move for White due to the above reasons.

Ah, I had written off this 4 because of the push and cut, I figured m3 would make it hard for W to really make any eyes on the side, and therefore would be floating in the center.

But Q10 definitely seems like an inconvenience..

You say a is overconcentrated, but to me it looks like a lot of territory with few stones.

Quote:
Unusedname wrote:
:b39: I don't like A and B here, I think if white jumps out he can escape easily.


You mean with his lonely stone at the top? Don't you kill his other group then? Or at least you gain a lot of forcing moves, which should result in a thick shape from which you can attack White's stones in the middle then.

hm I suppose..
Quote:
Unusedname wrote:
:b49: I do not understand why the cap would be better. Can you explain your thoughts to me?


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . X X . . . X . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . O . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O . O . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O . . . . . . 1 . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X X O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Hm, you are ahead of White in the center and you don't force White to strengthen himself in the process. This would be my reasoning : D

Okay so I think I see it now. Shoulder Hit made white solidify his moyo
But the cap limits the moyo...
or something

This relates to the quote I just saw!
About attacking potential.
Which is kind of vague to me.

But it took me awhile to see and identify weak groups, so now it's time to notice and identify potential. (Or what you guys have been calling big points)
Author:  EdLee [ Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:50 pm ]
Post subject: 
Unusedname wrote:
Well to me J8 looks like I'm still trying to catch the whole group which doesn't look possible anymore. So I just take what I can get.
Do you mean you were just trying to take the two B stones at E7 and F6 ?
Author:  EdLee [ Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:33 pm ]
Post subject: 
Unusedname wrote:
:b19: How do you mean low?
The :bc: stone is low, and as SoDesuNe pointed out, that whole group is a bit cramped and inefficient anyway.
Another (even easier) way to look at it: just look at the sizes -- it's still early in the opening --
Of the top, left, and bottom, your :b19: picked the smallest of the three.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . T T T T T T T T X . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . T . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . T . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . T . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . T . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . T . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . T , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . T . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . T . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . T . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . T . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . T . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X X O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . T T T T T T T B . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Author:  Unusedname [ Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re:
EdLee wrote:
Unusedname wrote:
Well to me J8 looks like I'm still trying to catch the whole group which doesn't look possible anymore. So I just take what I can get.
Do you mean you were just trying to take the two B stones at E7 and F6 ?



Well like I wouldn't take them right away, but I would have the option to do it later.
hmmm it didn't seem like a wrong move at the time.

EdLee wrote:
Unusedname wrote:
:b19: How do you mean low?
The :bc: stone is low, and as SoDesuNe pointed out, that whole group is a bit cramped and inefficient anyway.
Another (even easier) way to look at it: just look at the sizes -- it's still early in the opening --
Of the top, left, and bottom, your :b19: picked the smallest of the three.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . T T T T T T T T X . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . T . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . T . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . T . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . T . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . T . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . T , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . T . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . T . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . T . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . T . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . T . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . X X O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . T T T T T T T B . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


this one too is strange to me, I was sure you should always extend from thickness.

If I played on the left side it would be much easier for white to split my two stones.


I'm playing a bunch of games on kgs right now I'll upload them later. A lot of losses. ]:

One loss is because I couldn't juggle 3 groups.
The other one I was counterattacked and my group didn't recover fast enough to keep up the attack.
Author:  SoDesuNe [ Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Re:
Unusedname wrote:
You say a is overconcentrated, but to me it looks like a lot of territory with few stones.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . B . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . ? ? B ? ? ? B B O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . B ? ? ? ? ? B ? ? B O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? B . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Let's just say the shaded area is your territory. I count 28 points.
Now you have spent eight moves to get this amount. That's a little more than 3 points per move. That is far too inefficient for the opening stage where each move should be at least around 10 points big (not as secure territory but as a possibility to get).

On top of that I don't see any prospects of growth for this area.

But yeah, actually you are right. Overconcentrated shape means mostly secure territory - but inefficient.
Author:  EdLee [ Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:36 am ]
Post subject: 
Unusedname wrote:
this one too is strange to me, I was sure you should always extend from thickness.
For beginners.
- there is almost no always in Go;
- what we do with thickness depends entirely on the particular whole board situation;
- that you should ALWAYS extend from thickness is simply false in Go;
- that you were sure of it means you got the wrong idea somewhere
(either you got the wrong idea by yourself, or wrong info from someone, or you misunderstood somebody or some materials);
- your N4 group was not exactly thickness at :b13:.
Author:  Unusedname [ Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Re:
SoDesuNe wrote:
Unusedname wrote:
You say a is overconcentrated, but to me it looks like a lot of territory with few stones.

Let's just say the shaded area is your territory. I count 28 points.
Now you have spent eight moves to get this amount. That's a little more than 3 points per move. That is far too inefficient for the opening stage where each move should be at least around 10 points big (not as secure territory but as a possibility to get).

On top of that I don't see any prospects of growth for this area.

But yeah, actually you are right. Overconcentrated shape means mostly secure territory - but inefficient.


This makes sense.
It's going to be hard for me to apply without feeling loose.
I feel like this is just going to result in a lot of weak groups for me in my future games.

EdLee wrote:
Unusedname wrote:
this one too is strange to me, I was sure you should always extend from thickness.
For beginners.
- there is almost no always in Go;
- what we do with thickness depends entirely on the particular whole board situation;
- that you should ALWAYS extend from thickness is simply false in Go;
- that you were sure of it means you got the wrong idea somewhere
(either you got the wrong idea by yourself, or wrong info from someone, or you misunderstood somebody or some materials);
- your N4 group was not exactly thickness at :b13:.


Haha I admit, I am quite the slave to proverbs and shape.
Sometimes it's easier then thinking for myself.
Go is hard. ]:


On another note, how do I ensure that I take something away from a review. I do appreciate your input but it feels like when I play I just go into a trance.
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