In the game, I played move 40 here:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W Move 40
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . X . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

How does this compare to:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W Move 40
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . X . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Is there a better move?

_________________
be immersed

Any other comments on the game are welcome.

_________________
be immersed

11 - looking up the joseki was interesting. The first joseki given in Takao's is just the stylish H6, black E3. Later, white has d3 d4 d2 to get a ko for the corner or other follow ups.

26 - Seemed a bit eager to me.

34 - I was tempted to wrap around the outside instead, though that seems weak territorially. What do you think?

36 & 40 - both surely better at q10

I'll look more tomorrow.

_________________
Revisiting Go - Study Journal
My Programming Blog - About the evolution of my go bot.

I'm a bit rusty, so I hope I didn't write too many stupid things ^^ Just a few comments on how I would have played : )

_________________
My "guide" to become stronger in Go

In the lower left, let's look at what happened. Below is one standard continuation when White extends at . IMHO this is what White should have done in the game.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc One joseki
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 X 3 O . X . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 2 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The end result of what actually took place is below. In effect White passes at the end of the joseki.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Tewari of Game Continuation
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 O . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . X . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . 1 X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I would probably have played above at below to make the best of a bad situation. Black gets in and before returning to but White shuts off the side in better shape.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc How about this?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 5 1 . . O 7 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 O . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . X . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21

In the actual game, White answered Black's cut at E12 with F11, allowing Black to cleanly capture the D12 stone. So in effect, Black 35 ( in the diagram) was a threat to connect two living groups along the second line. White definitely should not have answered it. The alternative of Q10 on the right instead of B7 on the left is an excellent move.

One alternative that strikes my eye would be the hanging connection at E13. It would expand White's wall and loosely link it to the top left corner. If we imagine that Black plays on the right and White responds on the top as in the game, the play at the top would be much more powerful with the back door on the left side shut by a White stone on E13.

_________________
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W Move 40
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . X . 1 , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

answer to your above question on Q10........ it is big but doesnt have any purpose. fuseki is more than throwing a stone in an open space. your move have to have purpose to it. I would have played J4. it is big and build your influence and take away opponent's growth. If black take that side then you have top side that is open... miai.
sorry for being so cold on comment.
i feel that you have reached the level where you should think about such.
for weaker players playing that move is fine but for you i expect higher standard.

_________________
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson

@mw

If white plays j4 isn't black happy to occupy the right?

_________________
Revisiting Go - Study Journal
My Programming Blog - About the evolution of my go bot.

I thought the right looked a lot bigger than the bottom too...

Kirby,

Ed: I disagree with that pro.
Loons: black is happy but I think white playing rt side is lacking purpose. My suggestion is also big and has multiple purpose.

I guess my style is building thickness first. Since white gained influence by giving up points so his next move has to agree with previous choice.
Don't rely on pro opinion or my opinion. Have your own opinion until you prove it to be wrong.

_________________
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson

My rank drifted a bit on KGS, and I played a 3d on KGS yesterday. There was a clear difference between his strength and mine, and I was crushed.

Here's the game:

_________________
be immersed

I've given some comments in the game after reviewing it, but I think I need to study this game for awhile more. Why? Because this guy makes the type of moves I want to be able to make.

There is a word in Korean, 첫수, which is literally "first move". In the context of go, this can refer to the set of moves you select from as first moves when you are reading. So when I read out a position, I think maybe I can play A or B or C. Let's consider each of them. In this game, my opponent played moves that were not A, not B, and not C. He played moves like E or F - moves that I don't even read, because I don't consider them in my reading process.

I want to have this *breadth* of reading. I focus on depth of reading, typically, but this *breadth* in the 첫수 is something I need to have the type of strength my opponent had in this game.

How do I achieve this? I don't know. Maybe by studying his moves.

Here are some examples:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . W . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Maybe the move he played is a common shape - but it wasn't even on my radar. I don't know exactly how to respond to it correctly. But even more than that, I don't know how I would come to be able to consider a flexible move like this as white.

How do I get that strength?

Here's another example:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . W . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X X . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . X O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X C C . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . C O C . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . C C C . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think this move is great - but in the game, it wasn't even on my radar. As white, it wouldn't be on my radar, either. I was thinking solely of the marked area. I felt that the single white stone was weak, and thought only of the connection there. I need to have this wider vision of the board to be able to see how something further away can help the immediate fight.

Why is my vision so narrow? I don't know the answer to that question, yet.

_________________
be immersed

Why not just keep pushing through at m16 on move 17?

Both of these are joseki moves.

Edit: Or joseki-ish, anyway. I don't know if they appear in this particular joseki when he played them.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

During the game, it felt to me that if I try to push and cut, it would be what what had intended with the move, and would hurt the 4-4 stone. As I am unfamiliar with this move, I don't know if my rationale was correct.

The quick sequence I read during the game was something like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . B B 1 2 . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . W W 3 4 . C . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 6 . C . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I felt that this hurt black in the marked area. I figured I would strengthen the marked black stones independently of helping out his weakness.

In retrospect, if we play like this, the marked white stones are weak, so maybe this is OK for black.

I'd appreciate your thoughts.

_________________
be immersed

Thank you, Bill.

I had no idea either of these were joseki (or even joseki-ish). This leaves me with two questions:

1.) Could you share one of the "proper" joseki-ish sequences for each of these moves? Even if it's not applicable to this board, I'd still be interested.

2.) More generally, my impression from this game was that I need to improve my reading breadth, since he was considering moves I had not. From your comment, I wonder if one way to accomplish this would be to know more joseki, so I have more ideas on moves in particular situations. Practically speaking, though, do you have any tips for how I might work to achieve this breadth of reading? Though these might be joseki-ish, the moves seemed almost mystical to me, since they weren't even in my consideration.

_________________
be immersed

Side note, to anyone with an opinion:

Do you feel that black's response was correct here?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

My first instinct was to kick his stone, but it feels white could use it to attack the marked stone:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . B . . . 2 . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I don't know exactly how... Maybe he uses the same move he played in the game:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . W . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Edit: Maybe the move above would be what he'd play, because I saw some pro games with sequences like the following in this type of position (though, the top left part wasn't the same, so I don't know if it still works):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . W . . . . . . 7 . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X 5 6 . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . W . W . . . . 1 O . 8 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 3 2 . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Though, I wonder how the position is here. Does it favor black or white? White's top left is still strong...

Any thoughts on this position, and the move I played in the game (instead of the kick)?

_________________
be immersed

Well, the second is just the tsuke-koshi.

For the first, see the two space high pincer, elephant jump reply.



I think that it is practical, at each turn, to identify up to five candidate plays. The memory load is lessened by the fact that if a candidate play is not played, it often remains a candidate.

I also think that it is valuable, after reading, just to relax and look at the board for a second or two. You can often see something that you missed with the more focused attention of the search.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

I would actually prefer to come over on top at o15. White is so strong on the left and there's not much potential on the topside -- compared to the middle/right. If Black does some fighting on top and gets settled, there won't be much for him to gain there.

Looking at the direction of fighting p18 or p17 have a greater chance of pushing k16 towards the top through southwest regions, while a fight after o15 would have Black move more towards the south -- a better direction for him.