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 Post subject: Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Post #101 Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:03 am 
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Cant he just monkey jump at move :w50: with E1 ?

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Post #102 Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 8:31 pm 
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Shinkenjoe wrote:
Cant he just monkey jump at move :w50: with E1 ?


I believe so, yes. So perhaps I should have played L5 at 47. If he defended the ladder, maybe H2 would work out for me next.

In either case, before this, I didn't expect to get cut, so it was kind of my fault with that.

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Post #103 Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 8:32 pm 
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Today I studied a little bit of one of the Speed Baduk books.

I saw a diagram:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | X X X O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | W W W X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . W . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The commentary suggests that the marked white group has 4 liberties. To me, while a ko is involved, it appears that there are only 3 liberties.

Do we count an extra liberty because of the ko? I don't really get it.

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 Post subject: Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Post #104 Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 9:32 pm 
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Kirby wrote:
Today I studied a little bit of one of the Speed Baduk books.

I saw a diagram:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | X X X O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | W W W X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . W . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The commentary suggests that the marked white group has 4 liberties. To me, while a ko is involved, it appears that there are only 3 liberties.

Do we count an extra liberty because of the ko? I don't really get it.


I think I might get it, but it's just my guess. Maybe this if 4 liberties, since white can play as follows:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | X X X O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Now, black requires more moves to capture the stones:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 2 . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | X X X O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O 3 C C 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm5
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O 2 . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | X X X O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O 3 W 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Is this why it's 4 liberties?

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 Post subject: Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Post #105 Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 11:08 pm 
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Kirby wrote:
Today I studied a little bit of one of the Speed Baduk books.

I saw a diagram:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | X X X O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | W W W X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . W . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The commentary suggests that the marked white group has 4 liberties. To me, while a ko is involved, it appears that there are only 3 liberties.

Do we count an extra liberty because of the ko? I don't really get it.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | X X X O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O W B . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I don't think exchanging the marked white stone for the marked black stone, counts as an increase in liberty.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | X X X O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | W W W X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . W . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

(edit: added diagram for clarity)

May be they counted in the following way:
a1, c1 are liberties; liberty count = 2.
Black playing e1 is one liberty; liberty count = 3.
Black capturing the white stone at d1 is one liberty; liberty count = 4.
^makes no sense to me. ><

I totally agree with you that it should be three, since white can be captured in three moves.

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 Post subject: Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Post #106 Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 11:33 pm 
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Hmm, yes. I'm still confused, then. Unless the commentary or diagram was incorrect, and it is actually 3 liberties here.

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Post #107 Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 12:05 am 
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Kirby wrote:
Hmm, yes. I'm still confused, then. Unless the commentary or diagram was incorrect, and it is actually 3 liberties here.


That does seem to be the case.

It makes sense if the diagram was like below, then we get four liberties. That way, they can say even though it seemingly looks like black has four liberties and white has two liberties, the reality is white also has four liberties.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | X X X X O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . B O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

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Post #108 Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:36 pm 
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Yesterday at the Seattle Go Center, I met the infamous Araban. He was a little more soft-spoken than I expected. We played a 3-stone handicap game, with me playing as black. I won the game, but maybe he went easy on me.

I don't quite remember the entire game, but I remember some of it. There may be a couple of mistakes. Is it a bad thing that I can't remember my games? :-)



He played some stones in the center right area later, and lost them by mistake, but I don't remember the sequence.

The same night, I later played a game against DuskEagle and lost. I really don't remember much of the game, as it was a bit unusual. It started *something* like this, but I don't recall the exact sequence:


Then I asked DuskEagle for another game (Araban had left), but he played someone else. I then played against someone named Yao (I met him for the first time), but we didn't finish our game. He took a picture of it, and we'll continue it next time.

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Post #109 Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:27 pm 
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Isn't the ladder in the beginning of the first game good for black?

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Post #110 Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 5:32 pm 
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jts wrote:
Isn't the ladder in the beginning of the first game good for black?

But why bother running a couple of stones out? The right hand star point is much bigger. (I'm not even quite sure why white captured at :w21: . It doesn't seem worthwhile. White has miai of capturing and making a base on the top side.)

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Post #111 Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 5:44 pm 
Oza
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billywoods wrote:
jts wrote:
Isn't the ladder in the beginning of the first game good for black?

But why bother running a couple of stones out? The right hand star point is much bigger. (I'm not even quite sure why white captured at :w21: . It doesn't seem worthwhile. White has miai of capturing and making a base on the top side.)

Meh - play that hamete with the broken ladder in your next couple games and see how it turns out. :-)

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Post #112 Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:46 pm 
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At move 238 in post#57 game, you played C2. Why did you not play D1? Seems he snaked into your corner taking real estate. This looks like the difference in the game, which you lost by 3.5. There must be a trap I do not see, or some other way Black would take more of a share of that lower left corner. Thanks in advance for answering. - M&MStones

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Post #113 Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:13 pm 
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M&MStones wrote:
At move 238 in post#57 game, you played C2. Why did you not play D1? Seems he snaked into your corner taking real estate. This looks like the difference in the game, which you lost by 3.5. There must be a trap I do not see, or some other way Black would take more of a share of that lower left corner. Thanks in advance for answering. - M&MStones

If white plays D1, then black has the opportunity to cut at D2, and white will capture at F1, starting a ko. Admittedly it looks like quite a bad ko for black. If white wins the ko, it's a very close game, so almost any endgame move is a big enough ko threat to change the result. Maybe Kirby couldn't be bothered playing an endless ko or counting millions of threats. :)

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Post #114 Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 8:05 pm 
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billywoods wrote:
jts wrote:
Isn't the ladder in the beginning of the first game good for black?

But why bother running a couple of stones out? The right hand star point is much bigger. (I'm not even quite sure why white captured at :w21: . It doesn't seem worthwhile. White has miai of capturing and making a base on the top side.)


I did consider trying to move with the two stones. In the end, my rationale was somewhat similar to billywoods's. Mainly, I figured that, while I may be able to escape, white would be able to attack the stones to get more profit, which would seem beneficial for white in a handicap game.

I don't know if my rationale was correct, but that's my current line of thinking.

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Post #115 Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 8:09 pm 
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M&MStones wrote:
At move 238 in post#57 game, you played C2. Why did you not play D1? Seems he snaked into your corner taking real estate. This looks like the difference in the game, which you lost by 3.5. There must be a trap I do not see, or some other way Black would take more of a share of that lower left corner. Thanks in advance for answering. - M&MStones


I could have played D1, but there is the risk that he can play at D2, and then it becomes a ko (where he can either capture D1 or I kill his group).

I should have:
* Counted ko threats to see if I could win the ko
* Counted the score to see how close the game was

If I had done either of these, it might have aided my decision as to whether ot not I should play the ko. Instead, I didn't think about it much, and just played in a safe manner.

Given the small difference in points this game, regardless of whether I could win the ko, I should have at least given it more thought.

Shame on me!

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Post #116 Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:48 am 
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I came across this sequence:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . 2 . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If white plays naively, black might get some influence:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 0 8 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 5 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 7 1 X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 O O X O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So one alternative I read about was to play this way:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 8 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 3 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , 1 X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm9
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . 8 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 X 2 O X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 5 . . O X . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 9 . 3 . O 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X W X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X O X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O . . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Some other variations are given, but this is said to be even. To me, this looks better for black. White has sente, but the marked stones can be subject to attack, so I feel like white should play again in the area.

I prefer black here. What do you think?

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Post #117 Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:50 am 
Oza
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Hmm, I see the connection. This actually seems fun to experiment with as a H2 or H3 joseki, except that it requires a ladder.

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Post #118 Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 3:05 pm 
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I played a game on Tygem. It's been a little while, so my rank may be a little rusty. I won the game:



Position to Ponder #1 (5 points)
Early in the game, black played the marked move:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It appeared that he wanted to establish influence. How would you respond to this move? What is your reasoning?

Bonus Question (10 points extra credit)
Regardless of your answer from above, how would you play in this position from the actual game, a couple of moves later:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Position to Ponder #2 (15 points)
Black has just played the marked move:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . O . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . X . . . X . X . O . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


How would you respond, and why?

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Post #119 Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:23 pm 
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I read a bit about this reduction sequence:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 5 7 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . 1 2 , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This is said to be the best sequence for both (for this invasion shape, ignoring the rest of the board).

I wonder why white has to come back and play :w6:. It seemed OK to keep going:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . C . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 5 6 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . 1 2 , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I guess black might play the marked intersection next... Maybe this isn't as good for white because it's "pushing from behind"?

It just seems that black's shape is so nice with :b7: in the first diagram.

Anyone have ideas on this?

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 Post subject: Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Post #120 Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 11:07 pm 
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Kirby wrote:

I guess black might play the marked intersection next... Maybe this isn't as good for white because it's "pushing from behind"?

It just seems that black's shape is so nice with :b7: in the first diagram.

Anyone have ideas on this?


I wonder if this is one of those positions where, once black's northward line is long enough to not be surrounded so quickly, if given the opportunity, he may descend into the bottom area for territory. If so, Move#6 by white is 6.G2 for the protection of that lower space. I can think of no other reason for it.

So, given your proposition 6.J6, can black now make the double jump on his H-line down to 7.H2? The first thing I see is that a white cutover 8.H3 is met amply (seemingly) by 9.G3.

Another line to look at for white is hane at the top with 8.H7. Can black now live down there?

In any case, it is interesting white waits a while before playing 6.G2. If that black line upwards were only two in length, maybe the hane by white on top is too much a strong surrounding move allowed to white.

Would like to see the analysis. I have only been playing this game about a month now....lots of guessing going on....though I like problem solving in general.


This post by M&MStones was liked by: Kirby
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