Kirby wrote:
Here's the continuation of a pro game I started to go through a few days ago.
...
...
Regarding
vs. F3, if you were white, would you follow up with a move on the bottom for 
? If not immediately, how urgent do you think it is?
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| Kirby's Study Journal http://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=8493 |
Page 52 of 96 |
| Author: | Kirby [ Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Kirby's Study Journal |
My biggest question from the game above is this move: White is weak, and black has potential to make a lot of points on the right. Doesn't this kind of move allow for white to make something happen? I'd prefer to just do something simple like this: Is that so bad? Or perhaps it's that white won't answer the peep? Something like this? Or this? Anyway, my feeling is to just make moves that reinforce the right side - not touch white stones like that. In the game, white reduced the white side a lot. Maybe it was inevitable? |
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| Author: | skydyr [ Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Kirby's Study Journal |
Kirby wrote: Here's the continuation of a pro game I started to go through a few days ago. ... Regarding vs. F3, if you were white, would you follow up with a move on the bottom for ? If not immediately, how urgent do you think it is?
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| Author: | Kirby [ Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:49 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Kirby's Study Journal |
After O3, I think it's less urgent. I like the mini-Chinese opening as black, so that's why I favor the approach. |
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| Author: | Kirby [ Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Kirby's Study Journal |
Played my first comeback game in the AYD today. Here's the game record: My biggest confusion points were decisions on what to do around these areas: Black to play (above). Black to play (above). Black to play (above). It was nice to play in the AYD, again. |
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| Author: | Kirby [ Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Kirby's Study Journal |
Started flipping through another pro game today, because... Why not? I'm in a good mood. I went through the first few moves tonight. I'll continue later, like I did last time. For this one, I just tried to play the next move. You can see the variations where I got the next move wrong. Some key differences of idea: My thought is to play something locally, for example, the marked move. Black realized that it was enough for him to get out with his group, and went on to invade the left side: So I need to keep my eye on the big picture instead of continuing locally all the time. And here: My inclination was to invade: Probably unreasonable. So it makes sense that white played a move to reduce the bottom, while simultaneously strengthening his group: And here: My inclination is to play here: But he played here: I don't know why his move is better. Maybe because of the aji? Note that I refer to aji when I can't really read a clear variation of why a particular side is better  Anyway, those three positions are probably enough for me to digest for right now. I'll take it easy for now. |
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| Author: | Shaddy [ Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Kirby's Study Journal |
| Author: | Kirby [ Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:41 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Kirby's Study Journal |
I actually thought about this move, but it wasn't clear cut to me. This is what's I read yesterday, and I didn't think white could link up: That's still has aji, but maybe my this too: Either way, I guess there's I still aji. |
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| Author: | Kirby [ Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Kirby's Study Journal |
Bitter loss. Maybe this will teach me to be more careful. I played too casually. Some general comments (also in SGF): I should have seriously considered tenuki on the top. I didn't try to read it at all, but I think I can live, looking at it now. At least I should have read it during the game. R8 was crude. Finally, I think that I should have just lived in the middle instead of being fancy. That would have resulted in a win for me, I think. |
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| Author: | Kirby [ Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Kirby's Study Journal |
I felt bad about losing last week, so I didn't play a lot of games. I played one in the AYD today, though. I lost the game, but "won" it, because my opponent didn't realize that he was winning and resigned. I had a big lead at the beginning, but I was good at giving it away. Here's my review, combined with comments from Inseong: Inseong outlined a general comment about his opinion of my current style: 1.) My greatest strength is that I can make the game complicated and, sometimes, turn it to my benefit. 2.) My greatest weakness is that I don't yield. I could just negotiate and give the opponent something, but I don't do that. I have been focusing, particularly in this game, on playing passively in my opponent's advantaged area, and playing aggressively in my own. However, in this game, time was short, and I had a very difficult time evaluating whether white or black was ahead. So how can I yield or negotiate when I don't know that it'll result in a position where I'm ahead? Inseong didn't say so, but I suspect that one of the roots of my problem is my inability to evaluate that well. If I seem to be 20 or 40 points ahead, evaluation is simpler, but if it gets closer, I tend to play aggressively everywhere, and not yield, as he says. It's my interpretation of his advice, anyway. I guess I need to practice counting. It's hard to do during byo-yomi, etc. |
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| Author: | Kirby [ Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Kirby's Study Journal |
Another note about the game, above. A particularly interesting example of where I had difficulty evaluating was here: After black's marked move, I must decide whether to just capture the corner and let black play another move in the center, or to endure in the center, and let the ko go on, giving white the chance to capture. I opted to fight in the center: I should have asked Inseong about this, but at least some variations I played out showed that just capturing in the corner gave me solid points, and I could reduce black's center enough to have enough points. Not really sure. These types of scenarios are difficult for me to assess, and seem much trickier than localized problems. |
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| Author: | Shaddy [ Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Kirby's Study Journal |
It looks to me like there's some aji if Black plays 91 at H1? |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Kirby's Study Journal |
Kirby wrote: Another note about the game, above. A particularly interesting example of where I had difficulty evaluating was here: I don't think that this is an easy position to assess. Quote: After black's marked move, I must decide whether to just capture the corner and let black play another move in the center, or to endure in the center, and let the ko go on, giving white the chance to capture. I opted to fight in the center: I should have asked Inseong about this, but at least some variations I played out showed that just capturing in the corner gave me solid points, and I could reduce black's center enough to have enough points. Not really sure. These types of scenarios are difficult for me to assess, and seem much trickier than localized problems. You can certainly make a good case for winning the ko. Let me bring up some things to consider. If  wins the ko, which is an approach ko, White gets 45 points in the marked area -- if I have counted correctly --, and later White has a 7 pt. sente at "a", if not something better. So let's count 52 pts. for White here. Now consider the ko fight, looking at the bottom part of the board.  elsewhere,  at  ,  at 1,  elsewhere is a huge ko threat, threatening a swing of 64 pts. White has nothing close to it. We may consider Black to be komaster of this ko. I reckon Black to have 26 pts. in the area under consideration. That is a swing of 78 pts. in 4 moves, or 19.5 pts. per move. As against that, White gets 2 moves elsewhere and sente at the end. It is not easy to evaluate those moves, but the question is not just a single play, winning the ko, that gains 19.5 pts., but giving Black 3 moves that gain a total of 58.5 pts. Remember, the opening moves gain only around 14 pts. Arguably, your move gains more than 19.5 pts. But White needs other moves to gain a lot, as well. The case for just winning the ko looks pretty good. Note: At first blush, at 6 looks good, but at prevents Black from simply capturing the enclosed White group. There is a ko for seki. 
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| Author: | Kirby [ Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Kirby's Study Journal |
Shaddy wrote: It looks to me like there's some aji if Black plays 91 at H1? Good point! I pruned this branch pretty quickly during my reading with the following assessment: I didn't think much more, because it seemed I'd get two eyes in my mind. But reading further, it looks like a problem, doesn't it? !! |
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| Author: | Kirby [ Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Kirby's Study Journal |
This one is a little less clear to me, but I certainly didn't read it out during the game (or not, yet, frankly): Some thoughts: Certainly there's aji. I don't see it yet, though. |
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| Author: | Kirby [ Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Kirby's Study Journal |
Bill Spight wrote: You can certainly make a good case for winning the ko. Let me bring up some things to consider. If wins the ko, which is an approach ko, White gets 45 points in the marked area -- if I have counted correctly --, and later White has a 7 pt. sente at "a", if not something better. So let's count 52 pts. for White here. I pretty much follow, but I don't understand the count. There are 23 captured black stones, which would be 46 points for the captures, plus any empty intersections, right? Or maybe it's a different area that you're counting. Either way, it sounds like capturing the ko was a viable option - but I had no idea about calculating points per move, etc. It was pretty much based on emotion/feeling
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Kirby's Study Journal |
Kirby wrote: Bill Spight wrote: You can certainly make a good case for winning the ko. Let me bring up some things to consider. If wins the ko, which is an approach ko, White gets 45 points in the marked area -- if I have counted correctly --, and later White has a 7 pt. sente at "a", if not something better. So let's count 52 pts. for White here. I pretty much follow, but I don't understand the count. There are 23 captured black stones, which would be 46 points for the captures, plus any empty intersections, right? Yes, that's better. White gets 52 pts. there. Then if Black plays at "a" he gains 7 pts. on the right side.
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| Author: | Knotwilg [ Fri Sep 15, 2017 5:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Kirby's Study Journal |
I want to come back on this position: The open sides, the left and the top, have a superior number of white stones. Black's areas of development have already been invaded by white groups. The time is not right for me to leave the battlefield and compete with White in the top left (a). It feels like Black needs to squeeze a bit more out of having outnumbered White in the lower right. There's a sente move against the live group (b) and the cap at (c) increases Black influence towards the opean area while attacking White's heavy threesome. This leads to the following diagram Black harasses the lower right group with 1 to 4, then caps the white threesome. After White 10, it may be appropriate to move into the left side, at (a). Also possible is expanding the moyo with (b). |
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| Author: | Kirby [ Fri Sep 15, 2017 6:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Kirby's Study Journal |
Inseong agrees that the tenuki at 'a' was a bit early, and that I should continue with the pressure. His recommendation was R11 to take territory, while pressuring the heavy white group. |
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| Author: | lightvector [ Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Kirby's Study Journal |
Kirby wrote: Either way, it sounds like capturing the ko was a viable option - but I had no idea about calculating points per move, etc. It was pretty much based on emotion/feeling I'm surprised that you don't do this when evaluating trades like this. It's one thing when the ko involves some amorphous open area involving future thickness or moyo or whatever - I wouldn't know how to count that well either, that's down to judgment. But it's quite another when it's actually the life and death of a sealed-in group, then you can count very easily. Since each stone involved is 2 points, you can just count tetris-like blocks of 5 stones and go "10, 20, 30, .." points quite rapidly. Doing that in this case it takes only a few seconds of effort to see that the raw territory swing is ~70 points. Then you can optimize further as Bill did and consider that ''a'' would be 7-9ish points in sente afterwards for white, and add that to the value. Also add a tiny bit value for black's outer wall being weaker, but it's pretty strong so not much. So ~80 points. Since the swing happens over 4 moves (1 for white to win the ko, 3 for black to win the ko), that's ~20 points per move. And if you keep in mind the following rough values, that gives you a useful mental guide to how big the thing is: Ordinary big opening move: ~12-15 points/move (~= fair komi * 2) Unusually huge opening move (a critical move that completes a huge moyo, etc): maybe ~15-18 points, possibly a little higher sometimes, depends on how critical Big-macro-endgame: ~7-10 points/move ("sente monkey jumps" into 4th line areas, some patterns involving capturing 2 stones on the side, giant second line hane-connects) Middle-endgame: ~3-7 points/move (various second line kosumis, monkey jumps into 3rd-line areas, capture single second line stone with small or gote followups) These are the same as "miai counting" values for moves, or another way to think of it is "how much would the opponent have to pay me in additional komi for me to be indifferent between making this move and passing?", if you happen to have some intuition for the latter. I find it a very useful technique to get a rough sense of how big a local ko is. Or when to actually live with a tripod-like-group (with tripod-sized groups, they're often not quite big enough to create and live with right away, so deciding when is a tricky timing issue), or when to ignore a cut or atari that threatens some local garbage stones that are cashwise big but don't have a huge effect on outer influence or strength of the groups involved. |
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| Author: | Kirby [ Sun Sep 17, 2017 8:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Kirby's Study Journal |
lightvector wrote: I'm surprised that you don't do this when evaluating trades like this I can't say that anything you're arguing is wrong, lightvector (partially because you're probably right, and partially because I wouldn't be able to tell if you weren't :-p). There are probably two reasons that this type of evaluation never entered my mind: 1.) Byo-yomi. I felt a bit of pressure being in byo-yomi, so it's hard for me to do logical computations here. Something I need to practice more. 2.) I don't think that this type of mathematical calculation is my strong suit. I rarely think numbers while playing go, except maybe occasionally in the endgame. If I have 40 minutes to play a game, most of my effort goes into reading sequences, thinking about attack and/or defense of groups, and things like that. I'm using a different part of my brain than when I try to do mathematical calculations. So to think of numbers like "7-10 points for big-macro-endgame"... well, it's not something I'm very used to. My current method of playing is more based on experience thinking, "ouch, that was big, or ooh, this feels good to grab this point, because it feels more than what he got over there". It's certainly not very precise, and I could probably improve a little bit by working out the numbers more. But I won't deny that it's one of my weak points, which I rarely practice that much. Endgame and/or ko-type calculations are kind of interesting/amusing to me a bit, but maybe less so than other parts of the game. I guess sooner or later I have to improve this part of my go playing ability, but I haven't really looked forward to it. |
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