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Kirby's Study Journal http://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=8493 |
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Author: | Kirby [ Wed Jul 25, 2018 11:12 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Kirby's Study Journal |
Quote: For all the talk of AI's recommending wacky moves that are hard to use (which is sometimes true), in this case the 3-3 after the pincer is a really boring/classic/normal human move, and one that stood out to me before reviewing it with LZ to confirm it agreed it was better. Yeah, I get it. My only point is that for go to be interesting to me, I need to have a story behind the moves that I play. And that story can't be "LZ has good win percentage". If that's my only story behind what I play, why bother playing go? I'll just let LZ play. I found a new interest in go again, but it's based on me playing MY best based on MY understanding. I'm happy to try to learn from LZ or Elf or whatever, but I need my own identity for the game to have value to me. So I'm happy to get tips from lZ, etc, and try them out. But I've gotta have at least some understanding of the reason behind my moves. Otherwise, it's pointless to me. |
Author: | Kirby [ Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:30 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Kirby's Study Journal |
Played another game today. Still having trouble getting a game on KGS, so I went to OGS. I guess rank doesn't matter as much there, because I was challenged by a 9k. Anyway, here is the game: |
Author: | Kirby [ Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:32 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Kirby's Study Journal |
Position 1: I opted for this variation in the game. I'm not sure if it's the best or not. I couldn't find something exactly satisfactory. Maybe just defending would be better, in retrospect: |
Author: | Kirby [ Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:35 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Kirby's Study Journal |
Also not sure about this position: I thought of a few different options, but none of them seemed that good to me: I figured that it would be good to separate black, but I tried to do so in a way that minimized profit for black. Anyway, the move in the game is the best that I could think of. |
Author: | Kirby [ Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:37 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Kirby's Study Journal |
Is it too aggressive? Maybe it's easier to just defend my group: However, I feel the exchange benefits black more than me? Not sure. |
Author: | Kirby [ Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:39 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Kirby's Study Journal |
Perhaps it's an overplay: I thought about a sequence like this, but I didn't realize how few liberties I had. Maybe this would be better: Just slow and steady. |
Author: | Kirby [ Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:40 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Kirby's Study Journal |
I don't usually make this kind of move. Honestly, I wanted to play here: But I felt OK with the balance of the game, and I thought doing this kind of aggressive strategy might make me have two weak groups. |
Author: | Kirby [ Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:41 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Kirby's Study Journal |
Maybe this is an overplay. I imagined this: Not sure if it's the best sequence for me, though. |
Author: | EdLee [ Thu Jul 26, 2018 7:09 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
Hi Kirby, How do you feel about the solid connect (or tiger mouths), and do you have access to a super-human bot to eval this position ? |
Author: | Kirby [ Thu Jul 26, 2018 7:47 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Kirby's Study Journal |
I kind of like that variation, looking at it now. In the game I felt bad about allowing connection, but it seems to give good center influence. Haven't looked at it with a bit yet. |
Author: | Kirby [ Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:43 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Kirby's Study Journal |
Again, OGS. Really screwed up a lot this game, and his center lived. But I was way ahead, so it didn't change the result. Nonetheless, major screw up. |
Author: | Kirby [ Fri Jul 27, 2018 4:16 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Kirby's Study Journal |
Biggest mistake I want to highlight from this game is this move: This was too greedy. I should connect the stones: Then, white seems to have nothing. I didn't have much challenge in this game, but nonetheless, this was a big mistake. |
Author: | Kirby [ Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:03 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Kirby's Study Journal |
For kicks, I decided to analyze my game against that honeybear guy with LeelaZero. My computer doesn't have significant processing power, so I focused on the moves that seemed to be a somewhat significant difference in winrate. The first move that seemed like a big difference to me was when I took the 3-3 point here: LeelaZero seems to like playing here, at least on my computer: I'm against considering this suggestion to be a better move based on winrate only, so let's take the hypothesis that this is a better move, and think about why. 1. First of all, it puts significant pressure on the black stones. The black stones may live with the 3-3 point, but it threatens to seal black in: So black probably wouldn't take the 3-3 immediately. Presumably, black would push and solidify white's position on the left: The 3-3 point remains open as a big point for either player. So effectively, after black's slide, I'm faced with a decision to: a.) Take the big point move of the 3-3 to secure territory - I probably made some profit from the exchange; OR b.) Utilize black's weakness to fix my own weakness on the left side, and secure points there. Given that there's an invasion point that black later exploited, this seems reasonable. Next interesting position is here: I was afraid of extending here, because of black's cut: Seemed that 'a' and 'b' were miai. But LZ points out that it might not be so bad to lose the corner. For example: When black gets the corner with 'a', white can extend to 'b and gets a pretty decent position on the bottom. Is that bigger than the corner? Black gets at least 10 points. But white settled the group in the black area, effectively destroying the moyo down there... I think I'll buy it. I'll takeaway two lessons from this: 1.) Keeping pressure on the opponent to seal him/her in is valuable - more than a big point move, sometimes. 2.) I don't necessarily need to be afraid of a variation that loses stones, even if it seems like a lot of points (e.g. the corner territory), if I achieve a bigger goal. In this case, living easily on the bottom in the middle of black's area is a very reasonable result. |
Author: | EdLee [ Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:25 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
Hi Kirby, Quote: somewhat significant difference in winrate. Turns out the somewhat significance may matter. A lot.I seem to recall all the AZ-class bots eval at ~55% and at ~45% before (7.5 komi, area scoring)... that's a 10% gap before . So a difference of 5 to even 10% may not be big enough for humans (but good to explore and study, of course). If it's more than 30% drop in winrate between two candidates, of course it's very significant. In your current computing power, where's your border for significant ? ( 20%+ ? ) Quote: when I took the 3-3 point here: ...and is at 3-2, near 3-3.
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Author: | Kirby [ Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:29 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Kirby's Study Journal |
I don't have a scientific strategy for choosing "significantly different". It's more like "LZ seems to be playing a move here that didn't align with my idea of what was correct, and it seems to make a spike in the graph"... Ad hoc, I'll admit |
Author: | Kirby [ Tue Jul 31, 2018 4:11 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Kirby's Study Journal |
I played another game on OGS this morning. I like KGS a little bit better, but I can't get a game since I'm a '?' player there. I set automatch for awhile, but didn't get an opponent. I could always play a bot, but that didn't seem as fun as playing a human on OGS. So I played on OGS, but my opponent wasn't interested in waiting for me to think, it seems. So here's the (brief) game record. Not much to say about it. |
Author: | Kirby [ Tue Jul 31, 2018 5:05 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Kirby's Study Journal |
Finally got a game on KGS, thanks to automatch. 2-stone game against 3k. I lost. I'm not too down about it - making a comeback, and trying to study go, now. Here's the game: Later, I'll take a deeper look, but it's time for work, now. |
Author: | Kirby [ Tue Jul 31, 2018 5:06 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Kirby's Study Journal |
Particularly bad moves are: and |
Author: | Kirby [ Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:40 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Kirby's Study Journal |
A game against 4k - I gave 3 stone handicap, because KGS is still establishing my rank. I was dominated in the beginning, but somehow got lucky. I think it's because he was aggressive in an area where I was strong. We both made many mistakes. No time to review right now. |
Author: | Kirby [ Thu Aug 02, 2018 6:44 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Kirby's Study Journal |
Went to Ann Arbor Go Club for the first time in a long time. I was a regular about 10 years ago. I played three games. First two were against a guy named Don, who I've played many times before. I beat him at 3 and 4 stone handicap. The last was against a guy that said he gave Don 4 stones, so I played him evenly. But I felt he was similar strength to Don when I played him (just a different style). Maybe he has an anti-Don style or something. Anyway, here is the SGF: |
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