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 Post subject: Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Post #1181 Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:54 am 
Honinbo

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Calvin Clark wrote:
It looks like you held the line pretty well in this game. I'm impressed. For the first 100 moves I was not convinced you couldn't play this guy even. I look forward your comments.


Thanks, I'll take a closer look tonight after work.

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Post #1182 Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:55 am 
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I played against KGS 1d today. I was white with no komi.

Here is the game:


Summary: started balanced, in my opinion. I overplayed, but he didn't punish it so I got a decent result. I overplayed again, so he gained. But then he invaded and killed himself.

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Post #1183 Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:57 am 
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Highlights...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O X . O . X . W . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I overplayed a bit, starting with this sequence. I got off like a bandit.

---

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . X X O X X X O . |
$$ | . X . X O X . O . X . O X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . , X O X O . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O O X . X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . O O . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . O X . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O X . X . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I don't think the marked move is in the right area. Action seems to be on the top left. Not sure where I should play. Maybe here:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . X X O X X X O . |
$$ | . X . X O X . O . X . O X O . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . , X O X O . X X O . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . O X X O O X . X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . O O . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . O X . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O X . X . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Post #1184 Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:02 pm 
Honinbo

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Calvin Clark wrote:
It looks like you held the line pretty well in this game. I'm impressed. For the first 100 moves I was not convinced you couldn't play this guy even. I look forward your comments.


Hard to get through everything I want to get through in a day *thoroughly*. I took a break from the book I'm reading (ironically? it's about focus), and took a look at this game, again.

Unfortunately, I didn't get through much.

What really hung me up, was this first part:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . X O . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


What's the best way to respond? I am 40% satisfied with how I did things in the game:
- I didn't answer passively.
- I had *OK* shape.

Cons: I was over-concentrated and used several stones for a safe, but blah result.

I considered what else I might try. From my own review, I could only think of this move:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O B . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . X O . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


and it doesn't seem necessarily better.

So what to play?

I used Leela on my computer to get some ideas on moves. The two ideas that came about are shown in the variations in the SGF in the next post.

But to summarize, the two moves are:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . X O . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


and

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . X O . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . B . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


On my computer, Leela seems to slightly prefer the second variation, but personally, I like the result obtained from the first:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . X O . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 4 . 5 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 9 B O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 0 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 8 . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If I got this result, I'd have gote, but I'd be happy.

Whether it'd go that way in a handicap game is unclear, as there are several moves there where my opponent might deviate.

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 Post subject: Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Post #1185 Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:04 pm 
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Post #1186 Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:57 am 
Judan

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If you cut at g17 you should expect white to capture your stone. Yes, you get e16 in sente, but you made white stronger (white failed to defend on the top side so you had an attack at j16/j17 but instead let white fix this without spending a move). The situations where white ataris from underneath are typically with a white stone already at k17 so it's not 2nd line crawling for long and in that case preserving the threat of the cut is important. The b14 slide was my first feeling in that position: you aren't really scared of the cut as then you can counter-cut at g17. But I'd g14 hane not f14 extend.


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Post #1187 Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:40 am 
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Point taken about g17. The slide still feels passive to me, but I guess it's ok.

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Post #1188 Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:58 am 
Judan

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Kirby wrote:
The slide still feels passive to me, but I guess it's ok.

Yes, it is a bit passive, but on the plus makes sure of eyespace for corner and prevents white's eyespace on left. If you want Leela Zero to not be so passive you could change the board position to not be handicap so it needs to play the best moves to win (there's also a dynamic komi version that's better for handicap games). So I did this here and now it likes that centre move:

Attachment:
Kirby no handi.PNG
Kirby no handi.PNG [ 690.89 KiB | Viewed 2295 times ]


LZ thinks white should answer this at the top side (because it appreciates the power of a black attack there), but your pesky human opponents with fighting spirit will probably not but answer on the left, so it's instructive to see how LZ thinks black should play with me choosing what I think an annoying white player might do guided by LZ's suggestions (it thinks 8 should be at 9, then black b13).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . X O . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 6 . 7 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


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Post #1189 Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:06 am 
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Kirby wrote:
Point taken about g17. The slide still feels passive to me, but I guess it's ok.


I know what you mean. Such plays often seem passive or slow. But the key, as I learned from Sakata, is that they are dual purpose, making life or at least eye potential for your stones while taking away eye potential for your opponent's stones.

In this case, B-14 makes eye potential for Black while preventing B-15 for White. White B-15 would make eye potential for White while preventing B-14 for Black.:)

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Post #1190 Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:56 am 
Judan

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From a kinda related shape... I'd rather knight move than this kosumi (that did seem weird to me initially), which is common nowadays with this popular bot-era joseki:

This one as well as corner eyes has some linking up meaning to the l17 stone. LZ #157 thinks it is indeed the best move here, I didn't check the other ones.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Shin Jinseo 8p (B) vs Chen Yaoye 9p http://ps.waltheri.net/database/game/77909/
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X . . O . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . O . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X O . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Lee Sedol 9p (W) vs Motoki Katsuya 8p http://ps.waltheri.net/database/game/78264/
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . X O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 . . . O . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X . . , . . . X . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X X X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Kim Jiseok 9p (W) vs Park Junghwan 9p http://ps.waltheri.net/database/game/78303/
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Some more: http://ps.waltheri.net/444198

So if top pros are content to play this restrained kosumi when the double approach is low, makes it seem not so bad to do a roomy knight move slide when it's high?


This post by Uberdude was liked by: Bill Spight
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Post #1191 Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:15 am 
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Uberdude wrote:
Kirby wrote:
The slide still feels passive to me, but I guess it's ok.

Yes, it is a bit passive, but on the plus makes sure of eyespace for corner and prevents white's eyespace on left. If you want Leela Zero to not be so passive you could change the board position to not be handicap so it needs to play the best moves to win (there's also a dynamic komi version that's better for handicap games). So I did this here and now it likes that centre move:

Attachment:
Kirby no handi.PNG


LZ thinks white should answer this at the top side (because it appreciates the power of a black attack there), but your pesky human opponents with fighting spirit will probably not but answer on the left, so it's instructive to see how LZ thinks black should play with me choosing what I think an annoying white player might do guided by LZ's suggestions (it thinks 8 should be at 9, then black b13).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . X O . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 6 . 7 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Interesting. On my computer, LZ thought white should answer on the left over defending on top, though, that was with4 stone handicap. Also, my computer doesn't have high end hardware- I don't even have a GPU.

Either way, neither the slide nor this capping move came to mind as a response, so I'm satisfied simply to have those options to think about.

I think my attach and crosscut was an OK concept, but ended in over concentration.

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Post #1192 Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:16 am 
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Bill Spight wrote:
Kirby wrote:
Point taken about g17. The slide still feels passive to me, but I guess it's ok.


I know what you mean. Such plays often seem passive or slow. But the key, as I learned from Sakata, is that they are dual purpose, making life or at least eye potential for your stones while taking away eye potential for your opponent's stones.

In this case, B-14 makes eye potential for Black while preventing B-15 for White. White B-15 would make eye potential for White while preventing B-14 for Black.:)


True. My hesitation is probably with having a floating group of stones, but given that the slide takes away white's eyespace, it's probably not that bad since White stays weak, too.

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Post #1193 Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:18 am 
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Uberdude wrote:
From a kinda related shape... I'd rather knight move than this kosumi (that did seem weird to me initially), which is common nowadays with this popular bot-era joseki:

This one as well as corner eyes has some linking up meaning to the l17 stone. LZ #157 thinks it is indeed the best move here, I didn't check the other ones.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Shin Jinseo 8p (B) vs Chen Yaoye 9p http://ps.waltheri.net/database/game/77909/
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X . . O . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . O . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X O . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]




Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Lee Sedol 9p (W) vs Motoki Katsuya 8p http://ps.waltheri.net/database/game/78264/
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . X O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 . . . O . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X . . , . . . X . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X X X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Kim Jiseok 9p (W) vs Park Junghwan 9p http://ps.waltheri.net/database/game/78303/
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Some more: http://ps.waltheri.net/444198

So if top pros are content to play this restrained kosumi when the double approach is low, makes it seem not so bad to do a roomy knight move slide when it's high?

Yes, seems slow. Though I suppose knight's move would be cut off in these examples.

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Post #1194 Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:05 am 
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Kirby wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
Kirby wrote:
Point taken about g17. The slide still feels passive to me, but I guess it's ok.


I know what you mean. Such plays often seem passive or slow. But the key, as I learned from Sakata, is that they are dual purpose, making life or at least eye potential for your stones while taking away eye potential for your opponent's stones.

In this case, B-14 makes eye potential for Black while preventing B-15 for White. White B-15 would make eye potential for White while preventing B-14 for Black.:)


True. My hesitation is probably with having a floating group of stones, but given that the slide takes away white's eyespace, it's probably not that bad since White stays weak, too.


I would not even call the Black stones floating. After the Black slide, if any stones are floating it's the White stones. ;)

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Post #1195 Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:16 am 
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Uberdude wrote:
From a kinda related shape... I'd rather knight move than this kosumi (that did seem weird to me initially), which is common nowadays with this popular bot-era joseki:

This one as well as corner eyes has some linking up meaning to the l17 stone. LZ #157 thinks it is indeed the best move here, I didn't check the other ones.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Shin Jinseo 8p (B) vs Chen Yaoye 9p http://ps.waltheri.net/database/game/77909/
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X . . O . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . O . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X O . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Lee Sedol 9p (W) vs Motoki Katsuya 8p http://ps.waltheri.net/database/game/78264/
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . X O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 . . . O . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X . . , . . . X . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X X X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Kim Jiseok 9p (W) vs Park Junghwan 9p http://ps.waltheri.net/database/game/78303/
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O X . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Some more: http://ps.waltheri.net/444198

So if top pros are content to play this restrained kosumi when the double approach is low, makes it seem not so bad to do a roomy knight move slide when it's high?


One of the oldest ideas in go is that of a base. You can see even in the oldest surviving game records players forming a base with a two space extension on the side. However, AlphaGo did not bother much with such bases, if at all. (I do not recall it making one, but it might have.) I did note that in skirmishes such as these, it did make plays concerned with eyes, such as this kosumi. I wonder if the idea of a base in go is going to undergo a revision. :)

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Post #1196 Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:03 am 
Judan

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Bill Spight wrote:
One of the oldest ideas in go is that of a base. You can see even in the oldest surviving game records players forming a base with a two space extension on the side. However, AlphaGo did not bother much with such bases, if at all. (I do not recall it making one, but it might have.)

How about http://www.alphago-games.com/view/event ... 21/move/36


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Post #1197 Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:25 am 
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Uberdude wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
One of the oldest ideas in go is that of a base. You can see even in the oldest surviving game records players forming a base with a two space extension on the side. However, AlphaGo did not bother much with such bases, if at all. (I do not recall it making one, but it might have.)

How about http://www.alphago-games.com/view/event ... 21/move/36


Thanks. That's a standard 2 space base. :)

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Post #1198 Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:21 pm 
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I stayed later at work today, because today is go club day. After exploring some perf issues for my job, I walked downtown Ann Arbor to go to the go club. Well, I grabbed some food to eat, first. I probably didn't need to, because I was already a bit full from lunch. I don't need to eat as much. Then I went to the Espresso Royale cafe and got a decaf coffee. I'm not a big fan of decaf coffee, but I'm getting older, and I have a hard time sleeping when I have non-decaf coffee after 6pm or so. I was the first go club person there, so I grabbed a board, and did some problems by laying out the stones. I don't typically do that, since most of the time I just read problems from a book. It was kind of fun.

After a little while, the 4k-ish guy that I met a couple of weeks ago came in, and wanted to play even. I agreed, and we played this game:



I didn't feel much pressure for the entire game. The biggest area that I regret during the game was this position:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . X . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think it might make sense to at least break his shape:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X W X . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . X . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Not sure, though.

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Post #1199 Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:32 pm 
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After that game, "Don" came in. Don's about 5k or so, I think. I remember playing him when I lived in Ann Arbor like 10 years ago. He's exactly the same. It's like I've gone through a time warp.

Here's the game:


Biggest part I regret in this game is the cross-cut, where I didn't think at all, and things could have gone much worse for me:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . , . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Post #1200 Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 8:53 pm 
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Hi Kirby,

Are you now a regular member of this Ann Arbor Go club ?
Attachment:
IMG_3584.PNG
IMG_3584.PNG [ 38.19 KiB | Viewed 2203 times ]
Did you review the game with Don ?
Out of his first 39 moves, maybe only one move :b50: fought a little bit.

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