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 Post subject: Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Post #121 Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 11:38 pm 
Oza
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Kirby wrote:
I read a bit about this reduction sequence:

I doubt it. In GoGoD the diagrammed array of White stones occurs only five times and Black never plays the shoulder hit next. So I am guessing that you actually studied a different position. :study:
Kirby wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 5 7 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . 1 2 , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This is said to be the best sequence for both (for this invasion shape, ignoring the rest of the board).


It is almost impossible to ignore the rest of the board in evaluating this postion. For example, assume there is a two-space extension along the bottom (the reason Black does not approach along the bottom or invade a wider extension). Immediately when White answers :b1: with :w2: the shape becomes over concentrated. The higher White pushes, the most wasteful the marked stone becomes. Meanwhile, the further Black extends up the greater the threat to invade the left side becomes.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc White extension on the bottom
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 5 7 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . 1 2 , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O . . W . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Alternatively, consider what happens if the marked stone is Black. White pushing up suffers from a similar problem. It is not over concentrated, but it is ineffective if White doesn't have a good follow up on the right.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black blocker on the bottom
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 5 7 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . 1 2 , . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . B . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Kirby wrote:
I wonder why white has to come back and play :w6:. It seemed OK to keep going:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . C . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 5 6 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . 1 2 , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I guess black might play the marked intersection next... Maybe this isn't as good for white because it's "pushing from behind"?

It just seems that black's shape is so nice with :b7: in the first diagram.

Anyone have ideas on this?

Naturally there will be some positions where it is good for White to keep pushing with :w6: in your diagram. Guess what? Black won't choose to play the shoulder hit in that case! :blackeye:

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 Post subject: Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Post #122 Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 11:46 pm 
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M&MStones wrote:
...

I wonder if this is one of those positions where, once black's northward line is long enough to not be surrounded so quickly, if given the opportunity, he may descend into the bottom area for territory. If so, Move#6 by white is 6.G2 for the protection of that lower space. I can think of no other reason for it.



It seems that way to me. Presumably, it becomes more beneficial for white to play there instead of pushing further.

Quote:
So, given your proposition 6.J6, can black now make the double jump on his H-line down to 7.H2? The first thing I see is that a white cutover 8.H3 is met amply (seemingly) by 9.G3.


White can just F2 after this, I think.

Quote:
Another line to look at for white is hane at the top with 8.H7. Can black now live down there?

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Could you elaborate?

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 Post subject: Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Post #123 Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 11:53 pm 
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ez4u wrote:
...
I doubt it. In GoGoD the diagrammed array of White stones occurs only five times and Black never plays the shoulder hit next. So I am guessing that you actually studied a different position. :study:


You doubt it? :-)

I've verified the position, and this is the same as the diagram. This may not be a position that occurred in many actual games from the GoGoD collection, but it is indeed what is discussed in the text that I'm reading.

Quote:
It is almost impossible to ignore the rest of the board in evaluating this postion.


Good point.

Quote:
For example, assume there is a two-space extension along the bottom (the reason Black does not approach along the bottom or invade a wider extension). Immediately when White answers :b1: with :w2: the shape becomes over concentrated. The higher White pushes, the most wasteful the marked stone becomes. Meanwhile, the further Black extends up the greater the threat to invade the left side becomes.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc White extension on the bottom
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 5 7 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . 1 2 , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O . . W . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Alternatively, consider what happens if the marked stone is Black. White pushing up suffers from a similar problem. It is not over concentrated, but it is ineffective if White doesn't have a good follow up on the right.



That sounds reasonable. In the given diagram, I wonder if it's even sufficient to just push once, and play :w6: instead of :w4:.

Quote:
Naturally there will be some positions where it is good for White to keep pushing with :w6: in your diagram. Guess what? Black won't choose to play the shoulder hit in that case! :blackeye:


I suppose this makes sense. In the context of what I was reading, this position is a "standard" reduction sequence. But I agree that it may not make sense to put much weight into a standard without evaluating the rest of the board.

Perhaps it's good enough to keep in mind the general idea of reduction, and a common followup. Then, I can evaluate whether it would be good to push X spaces.

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Post #124 Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:38 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . C . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 5 6 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . 1 2 , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


In general, I do not like :w6:, because it pushes from behind. (FWIW, I am also dubious of the claim that :b1: is best. There are too many ways to reduce the White moyo.)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . 1 2 , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Isn't :w6: better? (On an otherwise empty board.) Don't let the double keima get away. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Post #125 Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:17 am 
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Bill Spight wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . C . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 5 6 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . 1 2 , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


In general, I do not like :w6:, because it pushes from behind. (FWIW, I am also dubious of the claim that :b1: is best. There are too many ways to reduce the White moyo.)



The example given was that the reduction here was superior to trying to invade:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . 1 . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I agree that there could be other ways to reduce... Maybe this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



or this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


but the text had the one I gave as a standard sequence, and even suggested memorizing it.

Quote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . 1 2 , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Isn't :w6: better? (On an otherwise empty board.) Don't let the double keima get away. :)


Compared to pushing, I think this is better, yeah.

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Post #126 Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 11:07 am 
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I just ran across this game, which seems pertinent. :)



Note :w24: - :w32: . :)

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Post #127 Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 1:15 pm 
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Thanks for the game, Bill. I discussed this reduction with a mentor the other day, and he also indicated the importance of the rest of the board. That being said, he indicated the value of sliding under to keep the group floating and able to be attacked, and also that the last move made the reducer thick - but might sometimes be omitted.

Thanks also for getting me back on track. I'd like to focus more on studying go on this go forum. :-)

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Post #128 Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 1:23 pm 
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I attended Go Congress 2013. I'll write a bit about the games I played, as far as I can remember them. I didn't record the games electronically - just in my memory. So I don't remember the precise sequence for the late middle game and endgame moves.

Still, for most games, I received pro commentary, and I've tried to comment on my own thoughts, and also what the pros said in the games.

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Post #129 Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 1:26 pm 
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Game 1

Having never been to a go congress before, I was excited to play my first game in the US Open. I commuted from home, which is a little over an hour drive from the tournament location. Games start at 9:00am, so I got up around 6:30am to get ready and go. I arrived around 8:30am. I walked around a little bit, and grabbed something to drink, along with a granola bar. Then I noticed the pairing sheet, and recognized the name of the player there - he was someone I met when I lived in San Jose. I knew that he'd been improving a lot, so I was a little nervous about the game, immediately after seeing the pairing.

Still, I found my way to my seat - he was already there. We chatted casually for a bit. The TD made some announcements, which I don't really remember, and the game started.

I played white.


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Post #130 Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 2:12 pm 
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Game 2

I was a bit shaken up after my first loss. Again, I drove in the morning to be at the hall by around 8:30. I had some breakfast, and went to the table. My opponent, who seemed slightly older than me (but not much), was already there. He was quite friendly.

I was a bit nervous, but I played black this time. I like playing black. After the TD made some annoucements (which I don't remember), we began.


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Post #131 Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 2:35 pm 
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Game 3

I was depressed. I had lost my first two games at my first go congress. Maybe it was because I don't play in tournaments much. Maybe it's because I don't use a real board much. Maybe those are just excuses. Either way, I felt down. I drove in the morning to get there, and was a little late - just arriving at 9:00. And my opponent was late, too. He showed up in a few minutes, though.

Things were kind of gloomy, but I tried to cheer up, and just play normally.

And so the game began. I was white:


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Post #132 Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 2:53 pm 
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Game 4

I had regained a bit of confidence from winning the last game (though I still had two losses). My opponent for this game was again there before I was. He had won all of his games so far. That made me a little nervous, but I felt OK about it.

I played black:

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Post #133 Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 4:04 pm 
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Game 5

After losing three games, I was a little down again. I came to the hall earlier this day. Traffic was pretty good on the way to the tournament, so I had no problems. I think I was there before my opponent, too.

My opponent was an older gentleman, who had been to something like 20 go congresses. He seemed pretty nice. We set out to play. This game was kind of weird in that, around the time that the SGF is finished, we went and adjourned the game for lunch. I had never done that, yet, even though I had the option earlier. He wanted to adjourn, though, so we did it (he sealed the move, etc.).

It was a fun game.


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Post #134 Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 4:08 pm 
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Game 6

Sad to say, but I'm having trouble recollecting this game. I played against an elderly woman, who spoke only in Japanese. It was fun to chat with her and review the game afterwards. I won the game by killing a large group, but it turns out in the review that she could have saved it. In the end, I had a record of 3 wins and 3 losses for the go congress.

I wish I had won more games, and my losses make me feel a little bad. But I do feel that I learned more in the games that I lost, and they leave me with a greater chance to improve myself, even to the point that I'm a bit embarrassed of my play in some areas of those games.

Interestingly, looking back on the games I won, it seemes that I won games when I was in a depressed state. Maybe I should be depressed more often, and I'll win more games...???

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Post #135 Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 12:44 am 
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I think it's better you lose, cause thn you ar not depressed. It sounds like a vicious circle


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Post #136 Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:41 am 
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Post #137 Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 6:05 am 
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In game 4 at move 100 you wrote, "Black is a bit behind, I think. White has a lot of points." But I think Black would still be in the game if you had played down at L3.

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Post #138 Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 6:42 am 
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ez4u wrote:
In game 4 at move 100 you wrote, "Black is a bit behind, I think. White has a lot of points." But I think Black would still be in the game if you had played down at L3.


Could very well be. I feel in this game, my endgame was very bad in that white got most of the big points (including L3 area).

I think I made mistakes earlier, but I agree black probably had a chance at this point.

I really should figure out how to play endgame one of these days. It seems like "low hanging fruit", but when I sit down to study, I can't help but do life and death problems, so I never really learn endgame.

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 Post subject: Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Post #139 Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 10:05 pm 
Honinbo

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I played a game online. I won by a little bit, but there were some problems I encountered.

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 Post subject: Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Post #140 Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 10:08 pm 
Honinbo

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Based on the game I just played, I wondered what the biggest point is at this point in the game:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Move 35
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . X . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm thinking maybe something like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Move 35
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . W . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . X . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


What do you think?

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