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 Post subject: Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Post #1201 Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 4:25 am 
Honinbo

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Yes, regular on Thursdays :-)

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 Post subject: Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Post #1202 Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:19 am 
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These days, I've been trying to wake up at 5am to run, study a bit, then play a game of go before work. Two weeks ago, I did a pretty good job, but last week, I only followed my schedule completely on Tuesday. I'm giving it another go this week. I'm a little tired, but feeling OK. Hopefully, I'll maintain the willpower to continue throughout the rest of the week.

Today, I played a KGS 1k. Since my rank was 3d? on KGS, I gave him 3 stones. Here is the game:


Around move 70 or so, things weren't looking great for me. I should have thought ahead more. I didn't see clearly a way to invade the corner well, but I did it anyway, and it would've been a great loss. However, things turned out great for me after this move by black:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X X O . X O . O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . X O X X . X O . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . O . O . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . X O . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . B . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . O O O O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X X O . |
$$ | . X . X X X X . . , . X . X X X O O . |
$$ | O O X O X O O X X . . O . X X O . O . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I was aiming for a ko, but even captured the stones:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . W . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X X O . X O . O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . X O X X X X O . . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . O . O O X O X O X . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . X O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . X . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . O O O O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . O X X X O . |
$$ | . X . X X X X . . , . X . X X X O O . |
$$ | O O X O X O O X X . . O . X X O . O . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


After that, I felt I had a chance. Which was amazing, because I cannot recall ever beating a 1k on KGS with 3-stones.

I don't have much time to review right now, because our game went a bit long, and it's time for work.

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 Post subject: Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Post #1203 Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:51 am 
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KGS: Kirby
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Running behind today; will post game tonight.

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 Post subject: Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Post #1204 Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:53 pm 
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KGS: Kirby
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So this morning, my schedule wasn't really as usual, so I didn't post at the regular time. Anyway, I still exercised and played a game.

I saw in the other thread that KGS ranks are screwed up, now. So I guess I shouldn't be so excited about beating a "1k" with 3 stones. Nonetheless, it's crazy:
Image


I've never been 5d? on KGS, even if it's a fluke. But I guess given the weird KGS rank thing, it's kind of meaningless now. Nonetheless, I still tried to get a game through either automatch or by challenge. But I didn't get any takers, since my rank is so screwed up.

So I played a game on OGS. I don't feel great about it. It was pretty meaningless. Not because of my opponent or the moves that were played. Just because I didn't really think much throughout the game. So I didn't really play, I guess. Thinking is the essence of playing, and this game lacks much thought on my behalf. So in that sense, I failed.

I guess I'll rack it up as a "junk food" game.




I'll aim for something more wholesome tomorrow morning. Hopefully I can get a game on KGS, despite the weird rank.

I kind of want to get back to my Tygem account, too, but I've been using linux a lot lately, and it's kind of a hassle to start up tygem.

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This post by Kirby was liked by: Calvin Clark
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 Post subject: Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Post #1205 Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:37 pm 
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Today, I lost a game on KGS. It was still a fun game. I gave 2 stones to a "3-dan" - I don't even know what that means on KGS, anymore.

Anyway, here is the game:


I played really silly on the bottom and got a ko, then died. I think if I just live on the bottom and in the middle, I can win. I haven't read out all possibilities to see if this is definitely possible.

But if I live, it seems like I have more points.

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Post #1206 Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:38 pm 
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KGS: Kirby
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Starting with here, I started getting silly:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O O . . O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X O O X X X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . X X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O . X X . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . O . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . O X . . X X X . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X O O . X . X O X O . X X O . . |
$$ | . O X O . O . . O , . O . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . O . O . O . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O O X . O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X . X O X O X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . X . X O . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . X X . O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X X O X O . . , . X X X X , . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . W X . X X O O X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O X . . O . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think I can just live in a simple way there, and then as long as he doesn't kill the center group, I have more points, I think.

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 Post subject: Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Post #1207 Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:40 pm 
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Here's another kind of silly move. I thought it was sente:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O O . . O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X O O X X X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . X X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . O . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . X . X . X O . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . W . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . O X . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . X . O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X X O X O . . , . X X X X , . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . X . X X O O X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Probably I can just move my stones out. I was afraid he'd break into the side:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O O . . O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X O O X X X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . X X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . O . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . X . X . X O . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O . O X 2 . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . 1 . . . O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . O X . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . X . O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X X O X O . . , . X X X X , . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . X . X X O O X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It's definitely a big loss on the right, but I think I still have a lot of points...

He has probably 50 or something, and I'd guess I have similiar.

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 Post subject: Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Post #1208 Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:45 pm 
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Thinking about it more, I think I should just keep it simple:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O O . . O O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X O O X X X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . X X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . O . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . X . X . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 3 O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . 1 X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . 2 X O . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X X O X O . . , . . X X X , . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O . . X . X X O O X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Seems fine to me. I don't have to worry much, and can focus on taking big points.

Left side is still big, but his center still has defects. I'm doing pretty well on points, too.

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 Post subject: Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Post #1209 Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:47 pm 
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In any case, this game was more fun than yesterday's, since I focused more.

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Post #1210 Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:38 am 
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KGS: 11k
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Hello Kirby, such a dedication to wake up, run and play a game of go before work! I'll just ask a question, why do you play on KGS? There are many more players in Fox, Tygem, Wbaduk & even IGS?

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Post #1211 Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:18 am 
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I like Tygem, too - just haven't set it up on Ubuntu yet. I made some effort yesterday, but got stuck when wine32 failed to install with dependency issues.

Haven't looked much further than that.

Before, I played enough on tygem and KGS that I had a feeling for their ranks. With KGS as it is, I don't think I can say that anymore. So maybe some other options would be good to try too.

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Post #1212 Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:58 pm 
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It's Thursday, so after work, I ventured over to the Ann Arbor go club, again.

Don showed up, of course. It seems that about 5 stones seems good for us as a handicap: I played two games with Don giving him 5 stones, and in the first game, I won by 1.5, and in the second, I won by 2.5. Then a guy named Will showed up - I thought it was our first time meeting, but he said he was a regular at the club about 10 years ago when I was there. He also knew a lot of the same names from the club around that time. So maybe it wasn't our first time meeting. I'm not sure.

Will told me that he was just returning from a trip through Asia. I think he was in Nepal, Japan, and maybe Taiwan, if I remember correctly. Anyway, he told me that he was about 1d on KGS, before the ranks started going haywire.

So I figured we were pretty similar in rank. I called myself about 2d, so I played as white.

Here is the game:

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Post #1213 Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:01 pm 
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There are two major points that I want to focus on for this game. The first is a mistake that I think I made, which is this move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O . X X W . X X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O O , . . O O . O . O . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X O . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . X . . . X . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think it'd be much simpler to just play on the outside:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O W X X . . X X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O O , . . O O . O . O . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X O . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . X . . . X . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I was naive, and I expected him to play like this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . B . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O . X X O . X X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O O , . . O O . O . O . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X O . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . X . . . X . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So I think just playing in a simple way is good. Which brings me to the next point...

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Post #1214 Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:06 pm 
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Here's the board position:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Simple, right? Black's plan seems clear to me. Black gets a response on the top, and then approaches the 3-4 point:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Perfect for black, according to that direction of play stuff, I guess. So my instinct is to say, "NO! Black! YOU CANNOT DO THIS!"

So I want to play a pincer:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Something like this.

Or maybe this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Or maybe this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


But which is better?

Hmm. Not exactly sure.

Well, it must depend on how black answers, right?

So in each case, how does black answer?

Hmm.

Not sure about that, either.

A lot of uncertainty.

BUT AT LEAST I'M PREVENTING BLACK FROM GETTING THE OBVIOUS RESULT THAT HE WANTS, RIGHT??!!?11

But what is that result that he wants?

It's so easy.
It's so joseki-ish.

It's like textbook.

It's almost like what you'd see... Pros play?

And why would I want to play like a pro?

Hmm, my reasoning seems bad here.

---

So I guess what I'm saying in a roundabout way is that my instinct is to repel black's idea, even if it's a simple idea that ends in an even result. I want to dive into uncertainty, because at least I know that it's not clearly what black wants.

But the problem is...

It's not clearly what I want, either.

So my conclusion is:

When the result is obvious, simple, and even, especially in the beginning of the game... PLAY IT!

No need to go into the complicated weeds when I have a result that seems pretty even and pretty simple. Just be simple.

I can keep the complications for the middle of the game.

Seems to make so much sense now. Maybe I'll forget it tomorrow.

_________________
it's be happy, not achieve happiness

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 Post subject: Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Post #1215 Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:53 am 
Honinbo

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Kirby wrote:
Here's the board position:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Simple, right? Black's plan seems clear to me. Black gets a response on the top, and then approaches the 3-4 point:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Perfect for black, according to that direction of play stuff, I guess.


Err, no. A make-do, if it aims for this position.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Perfect?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b , . . . . . , . . . . . B a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:bc: at "a" would be too low, so by getting White to reply at :wc: first, Black can play :bc:. It's an improvement, but all it does is avoid a bad position.

This is a position Go Seigen studied. He kind of does not like the wedge at "b" next for White, but in his ten volume set on 21st century go, he shows this position twice. Once he likes "b", once he doesn't. But in general he downgrades the wedge as not dynamic.

The AlphaGo teaching tool also prefers "c" for White. :)

But it also does not like :bc:. As Charles Matthews indicates, direction of play is a vector, and Black is a bit over-concentrated on the right side.

It also likes the reply :wc:. :)

Quote:
So my instinct is to say, "NO! Black! YOU CANNOT DO THIS!"


Psychologically sound, as long as you don't make a play you don't like.

Quote:
So I want to play a pincer:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Something like this.


Well, as Takemiya says, play what you want to play. :)

AlphaGo projects this sequence.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . 9 . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black can play the approach to the bottom right, but you get a pincer cum extension against it. Then Black makes a second approach to the top right. With two extra stones there, White has the advantage in the fight on the right side. :)

Quote:
Or maybe this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


That pincer may actually be a mistake. My guess is that AlphaGo would recommend Black "a" next.

Quote:
Or maybe this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


AlphaGo projects this sequence.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


With the high pincer in place apparently it does not like a double pincer on the right side.

Quote:
But which is better?

Hmm. Not exactly sure.

Well, it must depend on how black answers, right?


Znosko-Borovsky wrote:
Do not think too soon about what you opponent can do; first get clear what you want to do.

How Not to Play Chess

Quote:
So in each case, how does black answer?

Hmm.

Not sure about that, either.

A lot of uncertainty.

BUT AT LEAST I'M PREVENTING BLACK FROM GETTING THE OBVIOUS RESULT THAT HE WANTS, RIGHT??!!?11

But what is that result that he wants?

It's so easy.
It's so joseki-ish.

It's like textbook.

It's almost like what you'd see... Pros play?

And why would I want to play like a pro?

Hmm, my reasoning seems bad here.


Kind of dithering, huh? Perhaps because you are too focused on what Black would do. OK, you are pretty sure what he has in mind, and so you want to pincer to thwart his plan. So far, so good. (Although AlphaGo says not to worry about his plan. It's not such a good plan. ;)) But you have no clue how Black will reply to the pincer. The uncertainty gnaws at you. You are afraid that Black will have a refutation of your pincer.

This attitude is problematic, logically and psychologically. The possibility of a refutation is not a refutation. In this case you went for the pro play, and AlphaGo agrees. But then your opponent went for the pro play (the 10-4 point), and AlphaGo does not agree. The pro play is not necessarily correct, either. Besides, you usually will not know what the pro play is. What it comes down to, IMO, is having faith in yourself, faith in your own judgement. Of course it is flawed. But in the end, it's what you've got. And if you do not follow it, how can you improve it? :)

Quote:
So I guess what I'm saying in a roundabout way is that my instinct is to repel black's idea, even if it's a simple idea that ends in an even result. I want to dive into uncertainty, because at least I know that it's not clearly what black wants.

But the problem is...

It's not clearly what I want, either.

So my conclusion is:

When the result is obvious, simple, and even, especially in the beginning of the game... PLAY IT!

No need to go into the complicated weeds when I have a result that seems pretty even and pretty simple. Just be simple.


KISS is not a bad guide. :) However, in this case, a pincer seeks to fight where you have the advantage of two stones. In an even game, those are pretty good odds.

_________________
There is one human race.
----------------------------------------------------

The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins


This post by Bill Spight was liked by: yakcyll
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 Post subject: Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Post #1216 Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 1:22 am 
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Liked others: 2338
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Which is better?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O . . . . . 3 1 O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . , . . 2 a . O . O . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X O . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . X . . . X . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:b1: attaches, to make sabaki. After :b3: the question arises, which is better, "a" or "b"?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Maybe neither.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O . . . . . . 1 O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . , . . . 2 . O . O . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X O . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . X . . . X . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


My feeling is that the hane strengthens Black unnecessarily. Instead, how about the stand? Now you don't face that problem.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc One possibility.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . 3 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O . . . 5 . . 1 O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . , . . . 2 . O . O . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X O . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . X . . . X . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


In this variation, :b5: is met with the footsweep. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Post #1217 Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 1:29 am 
Lives in sente

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KISS works quite well in the fuseki:

KISS option 1:
This is never a bad move in the fuseki

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


KISS option 2:
The shimari is bigger than a possible black double approach.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Both KISS options work quite well.

I prefer option 2 because black did not follow this KISS fuseki rule: An approach to 3-4 is bigger than an approach to 4-4 :)
(I personally follow a even more strict KISS fuseki rule: Is the low approach to 3-4 available? Take it!!!)

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Post #1218 Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:06 am 
Dies with sente

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What is KISS?

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Post #1219 Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:29 am 
Judan

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Here's what I'd play these days, having embraced the idea from bots/19th century that 3-4 approaches/shimaris are bigger than answering 4-4 approaches. I checked Elf and it likes it too (as well as 2-space high, but I'd rather be low). It could also be seen as psychologically successful in disrupting your opponent's presumed plans (which I can empathise with). That's something about strong players, they often are content to play simple good moves, take some territory, give the opponent something because they know such as with your "perfect" black side shape it still has holes to exploit in the future.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


P.S. when he had facing 3-4 points, didn't Go Seigen like to make the big shimari when one was approached? I don't know if he was unusual in this or plenty of other pros of his time did too, but that's another thing he did that AIs approve of.

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Post #1220 Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 4:20 am 
Honinbo

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Thanks for the tips, folks.

The specific moves are not as important to me as the underlying point, which I still find to be true: a fair result that I can see clearly is superior to uncertainty. I often aim for refuting my opponent's aims, regardless, and I think a simple, clear result that I can understand is superior.

Your opinion may vary, but I feel this philosophy pretty strongly now.

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