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 Post subject: Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Post #1661 Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 12:05 am 
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Kirby wrote:
Kirby wrote:
sorin wrote:
This variation appeared publicly the first time I know of in the AlphaGo-KeJie match.


I remember from Ke Jie’s match as well. I’ll see if I can find the Redmond video I saw - I believe it happened after Ke Jie’s game.


I’m having a hard time finding it. It could very well have been Ke Jie’s game, but I seem to recall Redmond reviewing this pattern. He’s done a lot of videos with Chris Garlock, though, so it’s going to take time to find this pattern among those videos...


Here's the exact moment in the video commentary when it was played: https://youtu.be/1U1p4Mwis60?t=3253

And here's the game on the Deepmind website (if you scroll down a bit): https://deepmind.com/alphago-china#match_2

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Post #1662 Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 6:26 am 
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Thanks for looking these up, sorin. I still feel there was something else with Chris Garlock, too. Kind of bugging me, now. I might be hallucinating. Either way, I think you’re right that the Ke Jie game might have been the first with this particular shape and result.

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Post #1663 Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 7:39 pm 
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Perhaps slightly off the direct topic, but after a couple year hiatus I'm coming back to go and I found myself reading your study journal because I wanted to make sure your son was still doing ok. Of course in the process I read a lot of the rest of it over the past few years.

You talked a lot about Inseong saying you had too aggressive a style maybe last fall or so, and what he said coincided with my own opinion of your style. I've noticed, though, that you never seem to talk about counting. You have game positions and then say something like "I felt behind" or "black's area looked big" but it's not clear to me what exactly is driving those evaluations. I might recommend whenever you feel one way or the other that you practice taking a count of solid territory on the board, and then calculate potential territory that each side has. Once you have those numbers, you can decide on a calm course of action to keep the game in balance.

When you look at a big moyo on its own, it's easy to think that white's going to get a huge territory there. If you count and say well I have 40 points here plus potential for another 40 in these areas, and they have 10 points plus potential for 80 points over there, it gives you a solid understanding of what you need to do. When you see that all you actually need is to prevent your opponent from getting 10 points in an area, it's much easier to consider a calm reduction that helps them solidify territory, but just not quite enough.

From my own playing, I tend to play much more this way than all out fighting, and perhaps unsurprisingly my study routine was much different, to the point where I think my reading was below par for my level. My studying style was to read and play over pro games, and particularly older Japanese pro games, with the idea of familiarizing myself with what can be considered normal both consciously and unconciously. I think that this made me approach the game with the idea that if we've played an even number of moves, the board should be balanced unless someone has made a grievous mistake. So as long as I am achieving an objective I can feel free to sacrifice on a larger scale or allow my opponent to make points in an area. I also studied counting, and by extension endgame plays. I don't know that this is a magic bullet and don't claim to have ever been as strong as you, but since it seems very much the opposite of the way you seem to spend your go time, you might find it useful.

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Post #1664 Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 8:30 pm 
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skydyr wrote:
Perhaps slightly off the direct topic, but after a couple year hiatus I'm coming back to go and I found myself reading your study journal because I wanted to make sure your son was still doing ok.


Thank you. That means a lot. My son has been doing well for quite some time, now. I still worry about his health often; it will forever be a concern until one of us dies. In the meantime, I hope to have many good moments with him - I hope the new job doesn't disrupt that too much!

skydyr wrote:

I've noticed, though, that you never seem to talk about counting. You have game positions and then say something like "I felt behind" or "black's area looked big" but it's not clear to me what exactly is driving those evaluations. I might recommend whenever you feel one way or the other that you practice taking a count of solid territory on the board, and then calculate potential territory that each side has. Once you have those numbers, you can decide on a calm course of action to keep the game in balance.


I think your assessment is pretty good. I *don't* often try to take a precise count of the board. As of late, I don't really count at all - my choices are often driven by intuition.

I think practicing counting would be helpful (though, some things are hard to assess, such as thickness or potential).

It's a little hard to change one's style, but maybe when I play another game, I'll try to be conscious about counting. I'll try to remember and post it in a review here. If I post a review without mentioning the count, feel free to remind me that I reneged on my promise :-D

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 Post subject: Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Post #1665 Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2020 5:23 am 
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I played another game with Young Seon Yoon. She noted that viewership was a little down on the videos I've been translating for her. So I don't know how the plan will be going forward. Hopefully, she keeps making videos.

Anyway, here is our game:



I won the game, but have kind of weird feelings about it. I felt like she went easy on me compared to last time - I don't really know why, it was just a feeling.

She noted after the game that I didn't fight as much in this game as in our last one, so she didn't have a chance to do anything.

So I don't know if it's more that she went easy on me, or that I fought less, but anyway, the game was somewhat uneventful. We went over a few variations, which can be seen in the file.

Note: I don't know what's up with the second variation from the beginning of the tree. I'll clean up the SGF later. But you can see the main game from the main line.

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Post #1666 Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2020 7:13 pm 
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Whew. What a weird week it's been.

My start date for my new job was last Monday, March 16th. But with all of the COVID-19 stuff, I was told not to go into the office, and that onboarding was virtual. I don't get a physical computer, yet - I have to login to a virtual machine over the internet. It's gonna be that way for a little while.

As I had expected, things are fast paced. I like it, though, I'm a little worried I'll get left behind. I already have a task assigned to me, even though it's my first week, and I have to figure out how everything works. And then there's the added difficulty that since I'm remote, it's hard to chat with people regularly. Then there's the other bit where I live out in the country, and there's a cap on my internet data usage, which I already exceeded - so the internet connection is pretty slow.

Nonetheless, I'm enjoying the work. I have concerns about being fired already, but I'm doing my best to learn as much as possible and to be as productive as possible. I have an office in our basement, and every day I get up at the same time, make coffee, and get dressed in work clothes. It helps me think of work in the right mindset. As a result, I learned more this week than I did in the last several months at my previous job. I just really want to ramp up quickly.

My concern before was, because of the increased workload, I wouldn't be able to play much go. But after experiencing the first week, I think that's BS. With the amount of work I'm thinking about throughout the day, if I don't break up some time to do something extracurricular, I'm fairly certain I'll go crazy - or crazier than I already am.

So I'm back into studying go, when I can, during the evenings. It probably won't work when I'm on-call and stuff, but I want to try to keep some sort of hobby going.

On that note, I played a teaching game with Mark Lee today. He's a really cool guy. Here's the game:


Some general ideas/highlights:
1.) I have no idea what's going on when it comes to potential. I did try to count a few times in the game, and early on, I always counted me as being ahead. I gave no points or account of black's thickness. So I thought I was ahead in a game that I was not ahead in.
2.) I don't really know how to get better at estimating potential, except maybe to get more experience. Maybe when you read well and think about the actual flow of the game and how the stones can be used, you can get a better idea of the potential that's there. Still very mysterious and tricky to me, though.
3.) As usual, I overplay. Mark pointed out that I can't attack my opponent very effectively when my own group is weak.

---

I had a fun time. I'm going to try to be systematic in my hobby time going forward, too. That's the best way to make this work, I think...

:salute:

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Post #1667 Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2020 6:54 pm 
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I played on OGS today - because I couldn't get a game on KGS. And because the new Mac update doesn't let me run 32 bit apps so all of my wine stuff is broken (read: no Tygem or Fox).

Anyway, I don't really know OGS that well, but I have an account there, so I opened up a game. I played against a 2k. They were stronger than I expected, and I almost lost.

Here's the game:


The big thing to note is probably this one:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O X . X X O O O O O X X . . . . |
$$ | . X . O X . X O O X O X X X X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O X X X X X O O O X X . X X . |
$$ | . W X O . O O X X O . O X . X X O . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X O O O O O X X X O . . |
$$ | X . X O . X O X X X X X O X . O X O . |
$$ | . X O . O X O X O O X X X O O O . . . |
$$ | . O O O . X O X O . O X O . . O O O . |
$$ | . . O . X . X O O . . O . . O X X O . |
$$ | . O O , . . X O . , O . O O O X X . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O O X X . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X X X O . O . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X . O X O O . O . . . X . X O . |
$$ | X X X . . O X O O X . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . X X X O O X O O O . . . X O O . |
$$ | O O O O O O X X X X X O . . X , X O . |
$$ | O X X . O X . . . . . X X . . X X O . |
$$ | O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I should probably ignore white's threat here. I just felt so sad losing the stones, and I was in byo-yomi, thinking I'd find a way. I hallucinated, and imagined that this would be a threat later:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O X . X X O O O O O X X . . . . |
$$ | . X . O X . X O O X O X X X X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O X X X X X O O O X X . X X . |
$$ | . O X O . O O X X O . O . W X X O . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X O O O O O X X X O . . |
$$ | X . X O . X O X X X X X O X . O X O . |
$$ | . X O . O X O X O O X X X O O O . . . |
$$ | . O O O . X O X O . O X O . . O O O . |
$$ | . . O . X . X O O B . O . . O X X O . |
$$ | . O O , . . X O . , O . O O O X X . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O O X X . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X X X O . O . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X . O X O O . O . . . X . X O . |
$$ | X X X . . O X O O X . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . X X X O O X O O O . . . X O O . |
$$ | O O O O O O X X X X X O . . X , X O . |
$$ | O X X . O X . . . . . X X . . X X O . |
$$ | O X . X O X . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Obviously, no... So yeah, I underestimated my opponent a little bit and almost lost. Maybe I should try OGS out a bit more.

I have to say that I thought the AI analysis at the end of the game was kind of cool.

---

So anyway, yeah. Back to work. Weekend's over... I'll probably post here again near the end of the week - unless I find some time in the evening. We'll see what happens.

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Post #1668 Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2020 5:50 am 
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Kirby wrote:
Whew. What a weird week it's been.

You too, hey? Glad the new job has got off to a flying start. That should help take your mind off other things happening in the world...

Kirby wrote:
I don't really know how to get better at estimating potential, except maybe to get more experience. Maybe when you read well and think about the actual flow of the game and how the stones can be used, you can get a better idea of the potential that's there. Still very mysterious and tricky to me, though.

Yes, I have this problem too. Looking at the board after black 77 (your comment in the game), I see 40-50 points of territory for white (uncertain because maybe there's an invasion at or near L3), and about 30 points of solid territory for black plus a hard-to-estimate area in the left and centre. And I find it hard to imagine the left/centre expanding past 20 points and overtaking white's territory plus komi. But KataGo says no, black is ten points up here. But then you fast forward to move 149 and black has made some territory around K12, which I didn't see coming, White's also made some "extra" territory around M7, but the lower left has shrunk. So I guess that's black's potential in action.

How to see this coming ahead of time? I'll let you know if I ever figure it out. But it's probably something to do with thick/thin positions. Notice all black's forcing (sente?) moves: O5 (move 79), O3 (move 83), B7 (move 93), E18 (move 107) and so on. The fact that he's able to push you around like this suggests that he's outplayed you earlier in the game, but you and are aren't strong enough to see the weaknesses until it's too late.

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Post #1669 Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2020 4:08 am 
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xela wrote:
Kirby wrote:
I don't really know how to get better at estimating potential, except maybe to get more experience. Maybe when you read well and think about the actual flow of the game and how the stones can be used, you can get a better idea of the potential that's there. Still very mysterious and tricky to me, though.

Yes, I have this problem too.


Everybody has this problem. I haven't gotten up to speed yet, but doesn't KataGo project ownership of individual points? Often that will change, I suppose, with who has the move, but averaging the ownership over Black and White to play ought to act like an influence map. eh?

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Post #1670 Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:59 am 
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xela wrote:
Looking at the board after black 77 (your comment in the game), I see 40-50 points of territory for white (uncertain because maybe there's an invasion at or near L3), and about 30 points of solid territory for black plus a hard-to-estimate area in the left and centre. And I find it hard to imagine the left/centre expanding past 20 points and overtaking white's territory plus komi. But KataGo says no, black is ten points up here. But then you fast forward to move 149 and black has made some territory around K12, which I didn't see coming, White's also made some "extra" territory around M7, but the lower left has shrunk. So I guess that's black's potential in action.

How to see this coming ahead of time? I'll let you know if I ever figure it out.


Bill Spight wrote:
Everybody has this problem.


Indeed, it's pretty tricky to measure. What struck me as interesting is that, e.g., around move 77 per xela's comment, Mark had some confidence that black was leading, and he had an idea of by how much (I don't remember if it was the same 10 points that KataGo evaluated, but he had a number if I recall correctly). I suppose it has something to do with intuition about the position. But it's tricky to me to know how to quantify this.

People say to count. So I can practice counting definite points. But this doesn't exercise my ability to evaluate potential. And in fact, I wonder if it even has a minus effect - that is, if I keep practicing counting and telling myself that white is ahead by X points - I'm reinforcing an incorrect evaluation of the board.

So I guess it means that I should practice counting, then adding some amount of points for potential by some sort of fuzzy math, maybe. I'n not really sure how to practice this.

Whatever the case, Mark seems to have it down pretty well.

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Post #1671 Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:53 am 
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Kirby wrote:
I'n not really sure how to practice this.


We need a website or an app that automates what Bill did earlier.

Shows you random positions from amateur dan and pro games, at all stages of the game (opening, midgame, endgame), evaluates them with a strong bot, and then asks you to judge which side is ahead, and optionally asks you also by approximately how many points.

And ideally with configurable "difficulty level", where on easier difficulties it will give you positions with bigger differences relative to the stage of the game, and/or maybe something about the subsequent moves are expected to have fewer "tactics", etc.

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Post #1672 Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2020 12:17 pm 
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lightvector wrote:
Kirby wrote:
I'n not really sure how to practice this.


We need a website or an app that automates what Bill did earlier.

Shows you random positions from amateur dan and pro games, at all stages of the game (opening, midgame, endgame), evaluates them with a strong bot, and then asks you to judge which side is ahead, and optionally asks you also by approximately how many points.

And ideally with configurable "difficulty level", where on easier difficulties it will give you positions with bigger differences relative to the stage of the game, and/or maybe something about the subsequent moves are expected to have fewer "tactics", etc.


I think something like that would be a good start. Something feels like it could be refined, but I'm not sure that I can articulate my feeling very well.

Basically, when we are talking about a human concept like "potential", it's a model for some subset of what a computer might evaluate. So if you're able to practice on a site like this, you can try to estimate who is ahead by some amount of points, but then it'd also be educational to break down the components as to why. For example, if the answer to a given problem is that white is ahead by 10.5, and you guess correctly, it'd be interesting to know if your evaluation of definite territory was working in coordination with your estimation of the effect of potential.

Like if you miscounted definite territory and put white up in definite territory by 10 points, but at the same time underestimated white's potential by 10 points, you might still get the problem correct, but for the wrong reasons - you evaluation wouldn't extend to subsequent problems.

Then again, maybe there's no real problem here. If we had an automated site like that, you could probably just drill a bunch of problems, and eventually your internal model would be refined naturally.

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Post #1673 Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2020 6:51 pm 
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I was able to get a game on KGS somehow.

Here it is:


I played as black against KGS 2d. I was KGS 1d?, so he only had 0.5 komi.

I lost, but there are some big mistakes:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O X . X . . . . . . . X O X O . |
$$ | . X X X O X . . . . . . . X X O X O . |
$$ | . X O O O X . . . , . . . X O , O O . |
$$ | . O X . . O X X . . . . X O O . . O . |
$$ | . . O O O O O O X . . . X X O . O . . |
$$ | . . . X X O O X X . X X . X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O X . X X O . . X . X O X O . O . |
$$ | . O O O X X . O . O X X X O X O X . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . O X O X O O O O X X X . |
$$ | . O X X O X . O X O O X X B . X . O . |
$$ | . O O O O X . O O O X X . O O X . . . |
$$ | X O O X X X X X . O . X O . O O O . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . X X X X X O . . . O . |
$$ | . X O X X X O O O . O X O O X X O O X |
$$ | . O O O O O O . O , . O . O O O X X . |
$$ | O . O X O X X O X O O O O X O X . . . |
$$ | . O X X X . . X X X O . X . X X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . X . . O . . . X . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This is retarded. "Gee, I'm in a capturing race. How about I remove one of my liberties before we get started, eh?"

I should just start taking liberties. In the game, it ended in ko, and he got a lot of my top reduced. So stupid!

Earlier:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O X . X . . . . . . . . O X O . |
$$ | . X X X O X . . . . . . . X X O X O . |
$$ | . X O O O X . . . , . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . O X . . O X X . . . . X O . X X O . |
$$ | . . O O O O O O X . . . X X O X O . . |
$$ | . . . X X O O X X . X X . X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O X . X X O . . X . X O X O . O . |
$$ | . O . O X X . O . O X X X O X O X . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . O X O X O O O O X X X . |
$$ | . . . X . X . O . . O X X . . X . O . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . X . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X X . X . . O . . O X . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Somehow, I feel the move above is too loose. Seems there should be a way to kill him or at least make profit on one of his 3 local groups.

Maybe just keeping simple:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O X . X . . . . . . . . O X O . |
$$ | . X X X O X . . . . . . . X X O X O . |
$$ | . X O O O X . . . , . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . O X . . O X X . . . . X O . X X O . |
$$ | . . O O O O O O X . . . X X O X O . . |
$$ | . . . X X O O X X . X X . X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O X . X X O . . X . X O X O . O . |
$$ | . O . O X X . O . O X X X O X O X . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . O X O X O O O O X X X . |
$$ | . . . X . X . O . . O X X . . X . O . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . X . . . . B . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X X . X . . O . . O X . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


---

Anyway, I'll get this game reviewed on Friday by Mark. He'll probably have some additional insight.

Now, it'll be even harder to get a game on KGS. I have two accounts, Brian and Kirby. Because I lost this game, my 1d? account is down to 4k?. And since I won a couple of games by fluke earlier, somehow Kirby is at 8d?. Hard to get a game against 2d-ish player with either of those accounts.

I guess I should play more games on one of them, but I don't have a ton of time for it. I wish wine still worked on my mac.

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Post #1674 Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2020 7:04 pm 
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Browsed through the game quickly with KataGo - not a lot of play outs, so you can take this with a grain of salt. Either way, at least for entertainment's sake, I have to share this drop:
Image

So yeah, that was a bad move.

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 Post subject: Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Post #1675 Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:53 am 
Oza

Posts: 2473
Location: DC
Liked others: 148
Was liked: 437
Universal go server handle: skydyr
Online playing schedule: When my wife is out.
A few thoughts on the most recent game:

First, did you actually count? ;)

Second, at move 67, I'd be inclined to just connect the group out directly with H12. White is left with two stranded stones that he will have to figure out what to do with while black has successfully reduced white and has no weak groups and a lot of potential. Black also has a choice of targets for future action, like the white group at the bottom and the stone on the top right in addition to attacking those center stones on a large scale.

Third, at move 149, why not play O9 as white is inviting black to do? I count it as worth at least 28 points between the capture and saving the black stones, plus once that's taken black is connected and white still has to make life for his group. If white plays the fancy cutting move, black can just sacrifice those three stones and connect the left side group and then maybe aim at reducing white further around D6.

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 Post subject: Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Post #1676 Posted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:59 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 9000
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KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Some comments from Mark about the most recent game...

Position 1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . B . X . . . . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I didn't even think about the move above as being unusual, because I got so used to attaching to 4-4 after AI. But as soon as it was pointed out to me, I realized that I had overlooked that this isn't the same as when white already has answered here:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . C . X . . . . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The difference can be seen if we just do a simple variation:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 3 O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . 1 X . X . . . . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Above, the white stone is close to the other white stones - not an ideal extension, per say.

But here:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 4 O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . 1 X . X . . . . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White can be more efficient - or doesn't even need to answer immediately, maybe. So that's a big difference. Somehow, it just slipped my mind.

---

Position 2
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . C O O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I mentioned in my personal review that I considered doing this variation at the marked intersection - but I felt awkward with the marked white stone - my stones wouldn't have a base, etc.

But Mark said it was good for black if I do this one:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 X X O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 O O . 6 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 2 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 8 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . 0 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 5 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


He pointed out that the black stones aren't easy to attack, and white's position is low - white didn't get many stones.

I was still concerned, thinking - what if white tries to attack and make points on the top. But it's no big deal, it seems:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O X . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 5 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 0 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Given that the original white stone on the left was so far away, black's pretty strong here, and white doesn't have much of an attack. So I probably should have played that one.

---

Position 3
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


He didn't like the move above, because white can clamp here:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Instead, just extend:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



The clamp wasn't even on my radar. That being said, I *did* have concern about white getting a lot of territory on the left after my jump. Perhaps being solid like that lets me have a stronger position to reduce the left side.

---

Position 4
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O B . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Instead of answering, he recommended this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . 3 . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X 2 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I was afraid of double hane, and thought I was making good territory on the top. But I guess the left side is more important.

---

Position 5
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X O X . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O B . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Interestingly enough, this was a bad exchange, above. If white answers the other way, I can't connect like I did in the game:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X O X . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | 3 X O O O X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X 1 . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . O O O X . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 7 6 X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O . 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If I didn't make the original exchange, I can still connect.

---
Position 6
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O X . X . . . . . . . . O X O . |
$$ | . X X X O X . . . . . . . X X O X O . |
$$ | . X O O O X . . . , . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . O X . . O X X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O O O O O O X . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X X O O X X . X X O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O X . X X O . . X . X O X O . O . |
$$ | . O . O X X . O . O X X X O X O X . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . O X O X O O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . O . . O B . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X X . X . . O . . O X . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Instead of playing above, it's easier to just take the stones - and black is thicker:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O X . X . . . . . . . . O X O . |
$$ | . X X X O X . . . . . . . X X O X O . |
$$ | . X O O O X . . . , . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . O X . . O X X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O O O O O O X . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X X O O X X . X X O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O X . X X O . . X . X C X O . O . |
$$ | . O . O X X . O . O X X X C X O X . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . O X O X O O B O X X . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . O . . O . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X X . X . . O . . O X . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


---

The losing area was around where I mentioned in my review. He recommended this sequence:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O X . X . . . . . . . . O X O . |
$$ | . X X X O X . . . . . . . X X O X O . |
$$ | . X O O O X . . . , . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . O X . . O X X . . . . X O . X X O . |
$$ | . . O O O O O O X . . . X X O X O . . |
$$ | . . . X X O O X X . X X . X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O X . X X O . . X . X O X O . O . |
$$ | . O . O X X . O . O X X X O X O X . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . O X O X O O O O X X X . |
$$ | . . . X . X . O . 2 O X X . . X . O . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . O 1 . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . X . . 5 . 3 . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O . . . , . . . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X X . X . . O . . O X . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


---

There were actually other comments, too, but I don't want to go into detail here. Some takeaways are:
1. I did a decent job this game, except for that screwup near the last diagram I posted.
2. I should have been more focused on reducing the left side - moves like my jump from the shoulder hit + missing the opportunity to tenuki hurt me.

That's what I'll try to takeaway for now.

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Post #1677 Posted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 7:09 pm 
Honinbo

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Tygem: 커비라고해
Then a game I played against him:


I won't go into detail about the review of this game, but I want to focus on one particular move that I made, which is this one right here:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . O . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O . . , . . O . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . , . . . . . X . X . |
$$ | . . . O X O . . O . . O . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


We chat about this a little bit. My reasoning for playing this move was simple: I thought I was behind, so I needed to fight.

What he told me was a little bit interesting. Namely, after going over some games and playing a couple of times, he assessed that my style is one where I like to fight. But he told me that I fight too carelessly. If I can back up the fighting by being precise, then it can be good - like if I crank up on go problems and get better at that.

But here, I played this cutting move, and what happened next?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . O . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O . . , . . O . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , 8 7 X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X . . 2 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 3 X O 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 6 9 . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . , . . . . . X . X . |
$$ | . . . O X O . . O . . O . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Nothing fancy at all by either side - very predictable moves... And it's clearly a good fight for black.

But my thought process was like, "Well, I'm behind. Let's mix it up and cut apart his stones." Did I try to read a couple of moves to see what would happen? No. I just wanted to fight, because I thought that would give me a chance at getting some points.

I think this mindset is what he means when he says that I'm too careless with fighting. So it's like, "Do I wanna fight? Yes? That's good. But plan it out properly, da***t" (that's my personal interpretation).

Combine this with Inseong's constant advice to me about how I overplay and try to "do something". Perhaps trying to "do something" isn't the problem. Rather, it's doing something without a clear plan. I have some instinct about how to start fights or play in some areas by intuition - that's cool. But I've got to solidify that instinct and intuition with a clear plan.

Kind of obvious, but I think that's what my problem is. Maybe it happened in the 2d game we just reviewed, too. The guy had 3 weakish groups and then I played something weird. Not exactly the same, I guess. But maybe the lack of planning is a common thread.

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Post #1678 Posted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 9:29 pm 
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Kirby wrote:
Some comments from Mark about the most recent game...

Position 1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . B . X . . . . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I didn't even think about the move above as being unusual, because I got so used to attaching to 4-4 after AI. But as soon as it was pointed out to me, I realized that I had overlooked that this isn't the same as when white already has answered here:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . C . X . . . . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The difference can be seen if we just do a simple variation:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 3 O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . 1 X . X . . . . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Above, the white stone is close to the other white stones - not an ideal extension, per say.

But here:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 3 O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . 1 X . X . . . . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White can be more efficient - or doesn't even need to answer immediately, maybe. So that's a big difference. Somehow, it just slipped my mind.


Diagram corrected. :)

Yeah, the jump attachment is unusual. But having played it, why not the crosscut?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 2 O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . 1 X . X . . . . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Quote:
Position 2
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . C O O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I mentioned in my personal review that I considered doing this variation at the marked intersection - but I felt awkward with the marked white stone - my stones wouldn't have a base, etc.


Well, the bots don't seem to like it.

Quote:
But Mark said it was good for black if I do this one:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 X X O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 O O . 6 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 2 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 8 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . 0 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Yes, but! Why :w4:?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 8 . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 X X O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 O O 4 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | 7 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White gets a big corner. :)

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Everything with love. Stay safe.

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Post #1679 Posted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 11:51 pm 
Judan

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KGS: Uberdude 4d
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Bill Spight wrote:

Yes, but! Why :w4:?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 8 . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 X X O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 O O 4 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | 7 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White gets a big corner. :)


Indeed, bots nearly always say this is terrible for black so this is a joseki for the bin. I don't recall ever seeing it suggested, maybe it's possible to construct a position where it's okay: White invested a lot in building left and top boring.

Bots have another interesting revision to this joseki, they tend to prefer finishing with atari over extend. This loses a little endgame in the corner, but it's much thicker and reduces the effectiveness of black a.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 X X O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 O O 4 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | 7 2 3 . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


This post by Uberdude was liked by: Bill Spight
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 Post subject: Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Post #1680 Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2020 6:20 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 9000
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KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Somehow, losing to that 2d on KGS put my rank at 5k?. I want to play another serious game this week, so I had to rank up a little bit.

Here are a couple of games that I did on blitz just to try to get my rank up. Not really quality games or anything - just trying to rank up asap. For the first game, I didn't even realize I killed the bottom/center group for a long time:





Now I'm at 1k?, and I hesitate. If I do another blitz, there's moderate chance I could screw up at 1k level due to something stupid - maybe not, but I don't want to risk it... So I'm going to hold off on continuing until I have time to play a slower game.

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