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 Post subject: Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Post #1881 Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:53 pm 
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Played in the diehard tournament since I wanted to get more games in. My result was 3 wins and 2 losses. One loss was since I ignored a threat in endgame, so I *almost* went 4-1. But that's just an excuse.

It felt nice to win a few games.

I still believe my losses are a result of my casual study. Nonetheless, it was a fun day.

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Post #1882 Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2022 5:21 am 
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I won the 3rd US Open game I played. I fell behind when I misread and my group died. But later, my opponent misread and one of her groups died, so I could make a comeback.

Still a tough game.

The 4th round is coming up. The biggest problem is that I didn't get much sleep last night. I will need to focus to stay alert during the game.

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Post #1883 Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2022 6:03 pm 
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I played the 4th round of the US Open today.

I was ahead in the late endgame. And then I lost.

Here is the game up until my opponent's threat:



You can guess where I played (I was white).

Spoiler: I didn't connect, and my opponent cut the group as he threatens here.

As a side note, this kind of reading mistake doesn't make sense to me. I guess I don't have very good tournament stamina. I suppose I should play in more tournaments.

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Post #1884 Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2022 6:14 pm 
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Another note about the game:
I don't know the joseki that happened in the bottom right, and I played incorrectly. The game result seemed ok, though, because my opponent was soft on me...

So I guess I can complain about a silly endgame blunder, but I could have lost the game sooner due to the joseki stuff...

I can't tell if I am getting weaker because I am older, or because I am bad at tournaments, or I have a bad attitude... Really not sure.

Something is happening that leads to bad results, though. The only ways forward are to give up on getting better or to push harder. I guess I want to do the latter, though, it is painful when the results don't show.

There was a barbecue today for the congress. I sat with some folks that I knew, but didn't talk. I felt kind of like crying, but I was able to hold it back.

If it is this painful to get bad results in a tournament like this, the feeling of winning must be great.

I will try to use this as motivation.

Game 2 haunts me with the cut I tried to make - I didn't read that it didn't work. Game 3 was one that I won, but I still had a super silly reading mistake. I didn't hold my concentration. Game 4 from today has two lessons: I don't know joseki well enough, and I still make 15k reading mistakes if I am under pressure.

Today, Inseong is having a beer party for the AYD. It's probably not the best solution, but I am going to drink in hopes of feeling a little better. I will probably regret it tomorrow, but hey - I have lost enough in the US Open that another loss tomorrow probably isn't that different in the scheme of things.

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 Post subject: Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Post #1885 Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2022 8:13 am 
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I don't play enough games. I also have been taking a beak from go since the US Go Congress.

From today, I'm changing both of those things.

Since I am rusty, I made a new account on KGS. I played as black. Since it was my first time getting a game, I used automatch and played a KGS 1k.

Here is the game with some comments - haven't checked AI, yet:


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 Post subject: Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Post #1886 Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2022 8:15 am 
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The biggest move I regret is this one:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . X . . X O . |
$$ | . . X O X X . . . , . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . O . O X X . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . O X X . X X X X O . X . O X . |
$$ | . . X X X O X O . . . X . O X . O X . |
$$ | . X O O . O O X X X O X . O X O O X . |
$$ | . X X O . O X O X , O X . O X O X . X |
$$ | . X O . . O . O X . O X X X O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . O O O X O O . O X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . O . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It adds unnecessary complication.

I can take some solid points here:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X X O B . . . . . . . X . . X O . |
$$ | . . X O X X . . . , . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . O . O X X . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . O X X . X X X X O . X . O X . |
$$ | . . X X X O X O . . . X . O X . O X . |
$$ | . X O O . O O X X X O X . O X O O X . |
$$ | . X X O . O X O X , O X . O X O X . X |
$$ | . X O . . O . O X . O X X X O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . O O O X O O . O X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . O . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It keeps things simple, and I can just keep going.

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 Post subject: Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Post #1887 Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2022 8:28 am 
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Skimmed over the game with KataGo. Looks like both my opponent and I had a big reading miss:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . X . . X O . |
$$ | . . X O X X O . . , . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . X . . X X . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . , . . . O . , . . . |
$$ | X X O X O . O . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O O . O . . . . O . O X X . . O O . |
$$ | . X O . O X X . X X X X O . X . O X . |
$$ | . . X X X O X O . . . X . O X . O X . |
$$ | . X O O . O O X X X O X . O X O O X . |
$$ | . X X O . O X O X , O X . O X O X . X |
$$ | . X O . . O . O X . O X X X O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . O O O X O O . O X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . O . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Instead of there...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . X . . X O . |
$$ | . . X O X X O . . , . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . X . . X X . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . , . . . O . , . . . |
$$ | X X O X O . O . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O O . O . . . . O . O X X . . O O . |
$$ | . X O . O X X . X X X X O . X . O X . |
$$ | . . X X X O X O . . . X . O X . O X . |
$$ | . X O O . O O X X X O X . O X O O X . |
$$ | . X X O . O X O X , O X . O X O X . X |
$$ | . X O . . O . O X . O X X X O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . O O O X O O . O X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . O . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White can play here.

So it means my earlier reading was wrong, and I should simply try to live:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . X . . X O . |
$$ | . . X O X X O . . , . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . X . . X X . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O . , . . . |
$$ | . C . X O . O . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . B O . O . . . . O . O X X . . O O . |
$$ | . X O . O X X . X X X X O . X . O X . |
$$ | . . X X X O X O . . . X . O X . O X . |
$$ | . X O O . O O X X X O X . O X O O X . |
$$ | . X X O . O X O X , O X . O X O X . X |
$$ | . X O . . O . O X . O X X X O O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . O O O X O O . O X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . O . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I guess I got lucky there.

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 Post subject: Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Post #1888 Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2022 8:20 am 
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Still ranking up my new KGS account, so I played another game using automatch.

I was paired against a 4k player, and did a 4-stone game.

Here is the game, with some of my initial thoughts:


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Post #1889 Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2022 8:26 am 
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A couple of overall thoughts.

1. I played too slowly, sometimes.

Here are some examples where I think I could have played elsewhere:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . X . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . X . . . X . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X . X . O . X . . . X . . X O . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . O , X . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . O X X . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . X . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . X . X . X X O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O O O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



2. On the other hand, when I felt behind on points, sometimes I overplayed. Here are some examples where I think I should have been more patient:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . X O . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . O . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . X . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . X . . . X . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . X . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X . X . O . X . . . X . . X O . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . O , X . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O . W . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . O X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . . . X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . X O O . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . O , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . X O . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . X X O . . O . . O . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . O X X . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . . X . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X X O . X . X . X X O . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . O . O . X O O O O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It's a handicap game, and I think playing properly, steadily progressing toward the goal is good...

So it means - play patiently and properly... but not too slow. Some sort of balancing act here.

3. As with other handicap games I've played before, my opponent played fine in the opening. This makes me reflect on my own play, too. Games are said to be decided in the middle game. So let's play solidly in the opening, and progress steadily in the middle game.

I think in my own games, handicap or not, I get too eager in the opening, when it's not clear that I am winning... Just take it easy, Kirby - in most games, I'm not going to be clearly winning in the opening...

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Post #1890 Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2022 7:27 am 
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Still ranking up my new KGS account.

I played automatch, again - another 4 stone game:


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Post #1891 Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2022 7:29 am 
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The biggest thing from this game was this move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . W X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . X O O O . O . |
$$ | . O O X O X O . . . . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . O X X X O O . . , . X . X X X . . . |
$$ | . X X . X X O . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | X O O X O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X O . O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . X O . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X O . . . O . O O . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . X O O . O . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X X , O X O O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O . O . X X X X O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . X X O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Where did that come from?

I should play here:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . X O O O . O . |
$$ | . O O X O X O . . . . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . O X X X O O . . , . X . X X X . W . |
$$ | . X X . X X O . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | X O O X O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X O . O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . X O . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . X O . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O O . . . X X O . . . O . O O . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . X O O . O . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X X , O X O O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O . O . X X X X O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . X X O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Post #1892 Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2022 6:46 pm 
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Back in the AYD.

First game was a loss.

Here's the SGF, with a few comments:


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Post #1893 Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2022 7:02 pm 
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Highlights of where I think I could have played better:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O X . O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O X . X X . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O X . . O O O . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . X X X X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X X O O . O . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . X O . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O X X . X X , . . X . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . X O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O X . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I like the feeling of this type of move. It feels like I'm going to attack my opponent. But there's the action of attacking, and then there's actually getting points.

Sure, this move elicited a response. But a few moves later:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O X . O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O X . X X . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O X . . O O O . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . X X X X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X X O O . O . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X . X O . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X @ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X @ . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . @ @ , . . . . . , . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O X X . X X , . . X . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . X O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O X . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


What did I actually get? I got 4 stones on the board, which might get a few points of territory. I didn't really do much to help the center or get points elsewhere.

And now, it's hard to really play here in sente:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O X . O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O X . X X . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O X . . O O O . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . X X X X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X X O O . O . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X . X O . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O X X . X X , . . X . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . X O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O X . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black is already alive and would definitely tenuki.

In comparison, it might be more useful to get this move now:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O X . O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O X . X X . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O X . . O O O . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . X X X X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X X O O . O . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . X O . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O X X . X X , . . X . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . X O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O X . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black is not alive, yet.

----

The other aspect is this move:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O X . O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O X . X X . . . . . O X . W . . |
$$ | . O X O O X . . O O O . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . X X X X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X X O O . O . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . X X . X O . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O X X . X X , . . X . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . X O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O X . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


For sure, I am hurting the white stones on top. However, it does take away a lot of points from black if I live in the corner.

Let's say I played here, and black responds.:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 3 4 . . . |
$$ | . O X O O X . O O . . . . 1 2 6 . . . |
$$ | . O X O X . X X . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O X . . O O O . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . X X X X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X X O O . O . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . X X . X O . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O X X . X X , . . X . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . X O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O X . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black has:
Top right - 28
top left - 3 (including capture)
bottom left - 6
bottom - 21ish
Total: 28 + 21 + 6 + 3 = 58

White has:
left - 6 points maybe?
top left - 8 points
top - 11 points
komi - 7
total: 32 points

Maybe I can make something happen in the middle, but it's definitely hard to say I was winning.

So maybe trying the 3-3 invasion is reasonable...?

Anyway, later in the game, this move is ridiculous:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . W . X . X . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O X . O O . X O X O X . O . . |
$$ | . O X O X . X X . . . O . O X . O . . |
$$ | . O X O O X . . O O O . . O . X . O . |
$$ | . X O O . . X X X X . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | X . X X O O . O . . O O O X . X . X . |
$$ | . X X . X O . . . X . X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . X . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O X X . X X , . . X . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . X O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O X . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I don't know why I played there - I definitely wasn't reading something. It was more of a "feeling" - and a bad feeling at that!

Instead, the best I can come up with at that point is ko:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . 0 8 . 3 X X 4 X 6 . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O X 9 O O 1 X O X O X . O . . |
$$ | . O X O . W X X 2 7 O O 5 O X . O . . |
$$ | . O X O O X . . O O O . . O . X . O . |
$$ | . X O O . . X X X X . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | X . X X O O . O . . O O O X . X . X . |
$$ | . X X . X O . . . X . X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . X . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O X X . X X , . . X . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . X O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O X . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Not ideal, but better than dying...
---

I wonder where things went wrong. Earlier, in this shape, I played what I believe to be the "textbook move":
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . W . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O X X . X X , . . X . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . X O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O X . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It allowed me to tenuki, however, it cost a lot of points...

_________________
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 Post subject: Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Post #1894 Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2022 7:07 pm 
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So what are the overall takeaways...?

I think one thing for sure is that I need to stop playing as much based on good feelings.

Here:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O X . O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O X . X X . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O X . . O O O . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . X X X X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X X O O . O . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . X O . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O X X . X X , . . X . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . X O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O X . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I had a good feeling about attacking just to attack - it just feels good.

And I suppose here:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . W . X . X . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O X . O O . X O X O X . O . . |
$$ | . O X O X . X X . . . O . O X . O . . |
$$ | . O X O O X . . O O O . . O . X . O . |
$$ | . X O O . . X X X X . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | X . X X O O . O . . O O O X . X . X . |
$$ | . X X . X O . . . X . X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . X . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O X X . X X , . . X . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . X O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O X . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The move just feels like it's a good shape or something.

So if I have to summarize a takeaway, I think it'd be:

- Stop playing moves because they *feel* good. See what result you will get, and if it's actually good (in terms of points or life/death).

_________________
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 Post subject: Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Post #1895 Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2022 7:27 pm 
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A couple of points from reviewing with KataGo just now...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . W . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O X X . X X , . . X . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . X O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O X . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Indeed, my move here seems likely to be pretty bad. The recommended move is here:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O X X . X X , . . X . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . X O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O X . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


My thought then was, what if black peeps?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . C X . . . |
$$ | . X O O X X . X X , . . X . . , C . . |
$$ | . X X O O . X O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O X . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


But it seems that the general intuition may be to just play lightly here. Getting the 3-3 in after black made the two low moves, I suppose, makes white more efficient.

So to summarize where I went wrong here:
- I asked myself the question, "how can I fix the peep in sente?"
- But really, I'm thinking maybe this wasn't an important question. I should have first asked, "Do I need to fix the peep?"

----


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . O X . W . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . O X . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O X . . O O . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X X O O . O . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O X X . X X , . . X . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . X O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O X . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I thought the marked move, above, put pressure on black while getting a base and points for white.

KataGo seems to recommend this move:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . O X . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O X . . O O . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X X O O . O . . W . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O X X . X X , . . X . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . X O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O X . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Definitely seems to put pressure on black... But I don't have a good answer as to why it is better than the move I played in the game. Perhaps it's affecting the outside more, and the outside of the board is more empty and worth more points. But I'm simply reaching for an explanation here rather than understanding the true reason.

---

Seems it was a big difference to play this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O X . O O . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . O X O X . X X . . . . . O X . O . . |
$$ | . O X O O X . . O O O . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . X X X X . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | X . X X O O . O . . . . . X . X . W . |
$$ | . X X . X O . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O X X . X X , . . X . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . X O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O X . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I suppose it's more points.

Anyway, around here, the version of KataGo I am using seems to think white is a little bit ahead:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O X . O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O X . X X . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O X . . O O O . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . X X X X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X X O O . O . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . X X . X O . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O X X . X X , . . X . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . X O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O X . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


By point calculation, that doesn't make sense to me. But I suppose it also means that I might not need to freak out as much about getting more points?

---

The biggest takeaway I want to get from KataGo here is that, even if I answer a question correctly - I might be asking the wrong question. If I am trying to fix a peep, invade, or reduce or whatever... Maybe I should reconsider a now and then whether my plan is the best option.

I remember in one of Inseong's lectures at the US Go Congress this year basically pointing out that a lot of bad moves are "good" in that they have some value. It's just that when you choose that little bit of good value, you might be giving up a bigger value somewhere.

Maybe the peep in this game was like that - I was asking a question of how to get a "good" result for that peep, locally. But really, maybe the 3-3 was a much better "good".

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 Post subject: Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Post #1896 Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2022 1:43 am 
Oza
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Both of the moves make points but the threats are not comparable. In fact, the threat of you move is potentially point losing:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wxc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X 6 O X 3 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O 4 O X . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O X . . O O . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . X X X 2 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X X O O . O . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O X X . X X , . . X . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . X O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O X . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black can revive his stones with this double atari, so :w5: better be good.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . O X . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . O X . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O X . . O O . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X X O O . O . . 1 . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O X X . X X , . . X . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . X O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O X . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


In this case, Black will either have to break out on neutral points, or live with points on the upper side but then White can still pressure Black while making territory.

It's hindsight of course but I think it's reasonable.


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Post #1897 Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2022 2:16 am 
Oza

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Quote:
I remember in one of Inseong's lectures at the US Go Congress this year basically pointing out that a lot of bad moves are "good" in that they have some value. It's just that when you choose that little bit of good value, you might be giving up a bigger value somewhere.


There is a more fundamental way of looking at this - a pro way, not mine, but I'll present it in my own way.

Pros like to make lists of "bad moves". One of the best was made by Kita Fumiko for the Chuo Ki-in in 1923. The significance of the date is that this is effectively when populist go writing began. It was evidently thought that this was one of the first major topics needed to address the masses. Kita said the categories of moves she listed were used by pros in reviewing their own games. They include thank-you moves and slack moves, but quite a few others. Other pros have made such lists, categorised in different ways, and some give sub-lists (e.g. Kobayasho Satoru's "Five Envies" (e.g. invading just because it looks like your opponent may get some territory there otherwise).

I have summarised these lists in Go Wisdom appendices, so there is some English available on them. But there was also a long series in English by a (?French) amateur that appeared in something like the British Go Journal. Can anyone help me out there? What was different about this series, as I recall it, was that the author tried to pinpoint the psychological reasons why we make and moves. Most of us make many bad moves because we play too fast. But why do we play too fast? That sort of thing.

But, irrespective of the categorisation or the length of the lists, it is very easy to understand bad moves (e.g. I played too fast and blundered; I filled in my own liberties; I played a move that helped my opponent - a thank-you move). Because these moves are so easy to understand at almost any decent kyu or dan level, they are easy to eliminate - on paper. In practice, some of emotional or psychological hang-ups or deficiencies that cause them may need to be addressed first.

But if we take that as a doable given, we are left with the Sherlock Holmes kind of dictum: if bad moves are eliminated, what must be left are all good moves.

But there are good moves and very good moves and so on ad infinitum.

Obviously game-deciding urgent moves come first, and, by definition almost, all other moves must be bad. We are in blunder territory here.

But most of the time we do have a choice. How is that choice made. The usual criterion is that a move that has two purposes is better than a move that has one purpose. A move that has three purposes is better than one that has two purposes. And so on ad infinitum.

A move that just takes territory - typical beginner play - can be turned into a better move that also threatens the opponent's base, and that too can be made even better if it prevents bullying by the opponent.

Pro comments very often highlight the goodness of moves that have more than one purpose. A famous example, much discussed in many commentaries, is move 18 by Go Seigen in Game 1 of the Kamakura match. The point was that even Go was unsure where to play. So what he did was to create a move that had more than one purpose - rather too subtly for many of us, perhaps, as his thinking was to create a tedomari/miai situation (one purpose) and to start building a territorial framework (second purpose). There was also an aspect of timing - if he didn't play this move now he might never get it (third purpose). And, finally, Go had a fourth purpose - his move was a probe.

Many multi-purpose moves are easily overlooked because they use umbrella terms. For example, Honinbo Shusai was very fond of tsume (checking moves). These are inherently dual-purpose because by definition they combine a checking move with an extension (the extension element may sometimes be stressed by using the term hirakizume). But Shusai was fond of pointing out that a tsume could also be a probe or a base-making/threatening move. In short it was multipurpose.

Another kind of move, more of a concept than a specific shape, is something I have harped on about here a few times before. This is the Chinese concept of zhao ying or call & response. I prefer to call it a lighthouse move, it being a move in some central point that shines out to all friendly groups tossing about on the stormy wide ocean of the whole board. It is very common in old Chinese literature, and part of the reason must be that it helps massively in keeping groups connected. That is hugely important in old Chinese go because of group tax. But the concept applies in modern go, only there it doesn't have a name. You just see varying phrases such as "this move offers a helping hand to the groups below."

We actually see zhao ying hidden away in a term I chose for a concept in Honinbo Shuei's style of play highlighted by many pros. This is Shuei's L shapes in the centre. These magari moves obviously act as zhao ying moves and so are multi-purpose to start with. But in Shuei's hands they have additional purposes: turning the direction of play (in his favour, of course), escaping long term, providing thickness for the endgame, and so on. As I say, even other pros admire these moves.

But I have highlighted zhao ying also because I believe it is the simplest, and may even best, way to view very many AI moves. In Kirby's first example where he said he played a peep (H18 below; two purposes? - settling his group and attacking the opponent's group), katago came up with a zhao ying move as below:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . O X . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O X . . O O . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X X O O . O . . 1 . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O X X . X X , . . X . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . X O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O X . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This White 1 helps settle the White group and attacks the Black group. But it also (importantly) offers succour to the weak White group in the lower right. It even helps the White group in the upper left, as with normal endgame play this can easily turn into a one-eyed group. Since a zhao ying move is often an umbrella move, this is adding not just one purpose but several in one package. For example, It also separates Black. In addition, it is setting White up (in combination with the White groups below) to be thick in the endgame.

Even if I may not have thought of this move myself, I find it very easy to understand once played. I think this would apply to most players, at least if you start thinking in this "purpose-full" way.

It is easy, quick and hyper-useful to think about the purposes of moves. We may not do it in the subtle way Go Seigen did it above, but we can get much value out of the exercise. Furthermore, although we get no help from AI as to purposes, we do get a rich harvest from pro commentaries.

Commentaries tend to highlight just a few moves, but really we should be listing the purposes for every move. Apart from speeding up the learning process, I posit that this process provides sharp focus and also promotes the mental discipline that we need to avoid the kind of bad moves and blunders that appear in the various lists.

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Post #1898 Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2022 5:23 am 
Honinbo

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Quote:
Commentaries tend to highlight just a few moves, but really we should be listing the purposes for every move. Apart from speeding up the learning process, I posit that this process provides sharp focus and also promotes the mental discipline that we need to avoid the kind of bad moves and blunders that appear in the various lists.


I like the idea of having a purpose. There seems to be some nuance, however, to be careful of.

I am prone to sometimes playing moves for the purpose of attacking, or to avoid being attacked. This can sometimes be a good thing. However, sometimes I feel rewarded simply by the feeling of attacking, even if I am not actually producing value. In other words, attacking feels good to me sometimes, even if I lose points from the attack.

So I have been trying - sometimes unsuccessfully - to play moves that have a concrete value.

In the example provided, I can easily see some of this value: it is worth points on the top.

The recommended move here certainly has a purpose - and I totally agree that it benefits the weak group on the right.

However, it is harder for me to see the direct value in this case.

I still think it is the correct move - however, it is difficult for me to distinguish from moves where I have some purpose (eg. attack just to attack), without getting value. I play these types of moves, too.

The center of the board is a little difficult to interpret.

I suppose in this case, aiding a weak group while attacking is somewhat clear in terms of value. But it's a little difficult to recognize, since I am actively trying to play moves not only with purpose, but also with value.

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Post #1899 Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2022 5:26 am 
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I suppose there's also something to be said that black can push in the same area, almost in sente.

So the area has value for both players.

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Post #1900 Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2022 7:12 am 
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Quote:
Black can revive his stones with this double atari, so :w5: better be good.


Seems hard to come up with such a threat. In the game, I just drew back (my initial move on top was gote).

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