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 Post subject: Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Post #1901 Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2022 8:48 am 
Honinbo

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Tygem: 커비라고해
I played a game on Tygem. The time settings were quick for my taste, but I need to get used to faster time settings, too.

Here is the initial SGF:



I lost by 8.5.

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 Post subject: Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Post #1902 Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2022 8:58 am 
Honinbo

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Tygem: 커비라고해
Some highlights...

I think this move came back to bite me later:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . W X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It's gote, I guess, but I think it's more solid to just play here:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . W . O X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Here, my plans look inconsistent:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . X . . O . W . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I played the splitting move to begin with to aim at cutting. But then it didn't seem to work cleanly, so I came back on the right.

If I'm going to do that, I think I should just do it immediately:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . O . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I can see how black answers, and adjust accordingly.

---

The lean and cut here is questionable:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X 3 . O . . . X O O . . . |
$$ | . . O , O . 1 2 . , . . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O O X . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . X . . O X O O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . O X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It's clear that it impacts the corner when I commit to that. Maybe it's simpler to just jump out:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . O . . . X O O . . . |
$$ | . . O , O . . . . , . . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O O X . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . X . . O X O O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . O X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


---

I have a habit of this kind of move:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X O . O . . . X O O . . . |
$$ | . . O , O X . X O , . . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . W O . . . . X . X X . |
$$ | . . O X O O X . X C O . . . . O X . X |
$$ | . . . O X . X . . O X O O . . X O X . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . O X X O . X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X X X . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think it's better to just answer the peep, and decide what I want to do later. The move I played gets a small amount, but it also just makes me heavy and have to respond to the peep anyway.

---
Black seemed to get a lot of points attacking here:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X . X O . . . X O O . . . |
$$ | . . O , O X . X O , . . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . B . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . X O O . . . . X . X X . |
$$ | . . O X O O X X X O O . . . . O X . X |
$$ | . . . O X . X . O O X O O . . X O X . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . O X X O . X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X X X . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I ignored several times, so it makes sense. So maybe I should try to be even lighter:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X X . X O . . . X O O . . . |
$$ | . . O , O X . X O , . . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . W . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . X O O . . . . X . X X . |
$$ | . . O X O O X X X O O . . . . O X . X |
$$ | . . . O X . X . O O X O O . . X O X . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . O X X O . X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X X X . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I just need to have something live in that area, and I don't need to make a lot of points. I want to avoid black from gaining a lot from attacking...

----

So overall, what are my thoughts?

This was a quick game, so maybe my instincts weren't the best. The shape in the bottom left is definitely something I should have known better. I lost points there for sure.

I also think that it might have been OK to tenuki a lot, but I should be lighter when I do come to save those stones.

Those are the highlights that stand out to me.

The guy seemed a bit stronger than Tygem 4d, which is what I am used to. But maybe I am getting a bit weaker, so it's hard to say.

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 Post subject: Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Post #1903 Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2022 10:20 am 
Oza

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Quote:
I like the idea of having a purpose.


In the rest of your reply, you say both a "move" has a purpose and "I" have a purpose. I think it's important not to mix these things up. A purpose for a move is not a plan. It is simply the justification for playing it (e.g. it creates thickness). It is about here an now. A plan is about the future - to do something (e.g. create thickness) in order to achieve something.

Furthermore, you talk of "a" purpose. I (following pros) am recommending having multiple purposes, the more the better. You can then think of purpose as a unit of measurement - approximate it is true, but it's workable in practice, and that gives a "value." In practice, it seems, almost no pro move has just one purpose. Two seems the norm (or the mode, if you prefer). Three is not uncommon. Four is not exactly rare, but tend to get a move talked about. Five or more might mean you are Shuei incarnate.

As regards value, it seems best for humans to regard each move as an investment (another way of looking at "purpose") rather than a purchase. This is what pros do when they talk about thickness in the endgame, for instance. The bigger and broader your share portfolio is, the more you are covered as regards risk.

The true value of such investments is another one of those things that your intuition takes care of on your behalf, if you give it enough dough to make bread.

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 Post subject: Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Post #1904 Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2022 10:55 am 
Honinbo

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Tygem: 커비라고해
Quote:
A plan is about the future - to do something (e.g. create thickness) in order to achieve something.


Indeed, my "something" is sometimes questionable :-)

I will sometimes get what I want, but what I wanted wasn't that helpful.

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 Post subject: Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Post #1905 Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2022 11:08 am 
Lives in gote

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IGS: kvasir
Don't be taken in by number guys and don't be taken in by numbers, guys! They talk about 1-purpose, 2-purpose and n-purpose moves, it is all numbers and soon they will invent fractional purpose moves. Take it from a word guy, like me that knows professionals, that this is pure number talk.

Purpose is something that emerges from a conscious minds interaction with the outside world. It is merely a shadow image of the reality that lies beyond. Take it from a word guy, like myself that knows professional, that you need not count purposes. Only if you see through to the real thing can you have real understanding. These examples were talked about before but I'll revisit only hoping to shed light on that they have nothing to do with number talk.


Emergency measure

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . T . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O X X . X X , . . X . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . X O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O X . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


In this example white played resilient shape close to black's strong corner but then became worried about his weakness at the marked spot. The problem here is that white chose to defend in a way that makes black stronger, this is a big no-no, and has nothing to do with counting purposes. Such defensive measures should be left for emergencies when there is nothing else left. The game move might be a good move if white instead waited for black to strike first, see the next diagram. Even in this case this way may help black more than white since the corner is open and white therefore still has other options. If white doesn't like any of this, maybe only in this moment, and opts to defend it would be better to simply jump into the center than it is to strengthen black so much. The way that white helped black in exchange for a chance to defend is somewhat similar to paying the yakuza for protection.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 O 2 O . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O X X . X X , . . X . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . X O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O X . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Outside is important

Here white played toward the side, thinking to put pressure on black by attacking the eye space while making good endgame. It is a true n-purpose move, what could be the problem? Well, besides that black can't make the eye space for free, it is that the outside is very important. It is nigh impossible to put a number on playing first in the center and if black is forced to make moves on the inside to make eye space then that is good for white. White's outside moves really does have a huge impact on the game and threatens to capture black on a large scale, while white's inside move is slow. The problem is not the number of purposes and the marked move is really a bread and butter move.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . O X . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . O X . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O X . . O O . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X X O O . O . . M . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O X X . X X , . . X . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . X O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O X . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Try normal moves before drawing conclusions

White didn't block after :b4: and allowed black to smash through his shape. It doesn't matter how many n-purposes :w1: and :w3: had because if you don't consider :w5: then that is all out with the bathwater. Here I would not conclude that there was something wrong with :w1: and :w3:, besides that this looks fine, the issue is that what white actually played was certain to be bad. Also it is possible that black could have done worse, see other diagram. Again, it has nothing to do with counting purposes. Instead it is about not discarding good moves and that applies both during the game and when studying.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 X 3 . O . . . X O O . . . |
$$ | . . O , O 5 1 2 . , . . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O O X . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . X . . O X O O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . O X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Other diagram
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O 5 O . . . X O O . . . |
$$ | . . O , O 3 O X 1 , . . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O O X . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . X . . O X O O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . O X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Aw, number guys everywhere. Is it infectious :? I remember thinking some of the number guys were word guys before.


This post by kvasir was liked by: Kirby
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 Post subject: Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Post #1906 Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2022 1:20 pm 
Honinbo

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Thanks, kvasir, for the comments. I can feel and understand pretty much all of what you mentioned. It makes a lot of sense, now. I like your point that I can even wait for black to peep before taking such measures.

I'm too friendly with the yakuza, I suppose.

The one point that has been mentioned several times, which I still need to get a feel for is this one:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . O X . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . O X . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O X . . O O . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X X O O . O . . M . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O X X . X X , . . X . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . X O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O X . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I get the point that moving out to the center keeps pressure on black and gives value... But the sense of value is still vague to me. I guess I will try to consider center moves more strongly, even if they aren't a part of my instinct, yet.

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 Post subject: Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Post #1907 Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2022 7:57 pm 
Lives in sente

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Kirby wrote:

The one point that has been mentioned several times, which I still need to get a feel for is this one:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . O X . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . O X . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O X . . O O . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X X O O . O . . M . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O X X . X X , . . X . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . X O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O X . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I get the point that moving out to the center keeps pressure on black and gives value... But the sense of value is still vague to me. I guess I will try to consider center moves more strongly, even if they aren't a part of my instinct, yet.


If black ignore a move toward the center here in order to play on the top and secure life, you can seal him in with one more move. That would nearly connect your groups, too, so the life and death of the top group would not be an issue.

It’s hard to say how many points a center facing wall would be worth, but surely it’s more than the 15 points white would get if they take that entire top area. (Well, black get some points up there with a move up top, so maybe it’s a 20 point swing?) Realistically, I think black would respond toward the center, so you’d get to keep putting pressure on his group, get some strong moves toward the center, and quite possibly still get to play the move you played in the game.

Essentially, I think the threat of taking away black’s base isn’t so bad when he can easily run to the middle and live (or at least KataGo thinks so), so the timing is wrong.

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Post #1908 Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2022 3:32 am 
Lives in gote

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Kirby wrote:

The one point that has been mentioned several times, which I still need to get a feel for is this one:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . O X . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . O X . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O X . . O O . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X X O O . O . . M . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O X X . X X , . . X . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . X O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O X . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I get the point that moving out to the center keeps pressure on black and gives value... But the sense of value is still vague to me. I guess I will try to consider center moves more strongly, even if they aren't a part of my instinct, yet.

My guess is that KataGo intuitively takes into account this sort of aji when judging the value of a move at a:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . O X . b . . . 1 . 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . O X . . . . . . O X . c . . |
$$ | . O X O O X . . O O . 3 . O . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X X O O . O . . a . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O O X X . X X , . . X . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . X O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O X . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

A white move at b, provoking black a, would expose white's thinness on the upper side.
A white move at a leads white's group out into the center, reducing the severity of :b1: and black b. By strengthening this white group, white also increases the aji for an invasion at c later in the game.
So white a may be the true multi-purpose move here, while white b may be a bit passive/slow, losing the initiative for only a handful of local endgame points.

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