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 Post subject: Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Post #41 Posted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 9:09 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 8661
Liked others: 1488
Was liked: 1470
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
I won this game, but I kind of stole it. I think my opponent could have played differently for one move, and maybe would have won.

That said, before that I should have protected my weakness, and maybe it would still be an unknown result.



(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[6.50]TM[600]OT[5x20 byo-yomi]
PW[me]PB[adversary]WR[1k]BR[1k]DT[2013-06-17]C[I played white.]RE[W+Resign]
;B[qd]BL[591.454]
;W[dd]WL[597.769]
;B[pq]BL[586.396]
;W[dp]WL[594.554]
;B[fc]BL[584.36]C[Just calmly respond. I'm even white this game...]
;W[cf]WL[591.046]
;B[fq]BL[581.308]C[Hm. He plays like I do. Haha.

I could C6, but it seems more balanced to do D6.]
;W[dn]WL[580.988]
;B[jp]BL[578.875]C[Basically Kobayashi fuseki, but I don't know if it counts with R16 instead of Q16.

Anyway, I "know" that Q5 and R5 are wrong. I think it's because black's followup pincer is good for black...

I also "know" that it's possible to play R6 here.

But even though I "know" this, I do not really *know* this. I haven't had much experience with it to know it's bad...

So maybe I'll simply play Q5 even though I "know" it's bad...

Well. Black's pincer wouldn't be super great... So I guess I'll play what I "know" and go with R6. It's less likely he'll pincer, and I can make a calm base on the right side.

(**Post-game thinking: I didn't really know.**)]
;W[qn]WL[456.728]
;B[qp]BL[567.984]C[I wonder if R10 is OK...? Reminds me of Ishida's dictionary. Still, I don't understand it. So I'll play R9. He'll crunch me with R11 almost for sure - I know I would.

But I'll then tenuki to play on top.

I see a lot of various sequences on how to "attack" a two space extension like I'll make R9.

But I don't think white is in super bad shape with anything I remember...

So I can afford to tenuki.]
;W[qk]WL[453.695]
;B[qi]BL[564.155]
;W[od]WL[449.365]C[(**Post-game thinking: I'm not sure if it's OK to tenuki now or not. But maybe it's OK.**)]
;B[oc]BL[556.474]
;W[nc]WL[444.828]C[OK, perfect, now I can select what I want to play on top - given he's already F17, I'll K17 after O16.

(**Post-game thinking: In retrospect, maybe N16, him Q14 or whatever, then me J17 is better - seems like a tighter pincer.**)]
;B[pc]BL[555.488]
;W[nd]WL[443.373]
;B[pf]BL[554.588]
;W[jc]WL[440.457]
;B[dc]BL[552.194]
;W[cc]WL[438.107]
;B[cb]BL[550.372]
;W[ec]WL[427.973]
;B[db]BL[548.62]C[E16 should be OK. If he ignores E18, I can play there, and it goes so so with K17 et. al.]
;W[ed]WL[426.565]
;B[eb]BL[545.706]
;W[bc]WL[424.288]
;B[hc]BL[537.406]C[Cannot... resist... playing... G18!]
;W[gb]WL[415.92]C[(**Post-game thinking: This wasn't too "calm". I don't know if it was good.**)]
;B[gc]BL[529.093]
;W[hb]WL[410.177]
;B[fb]BL[516.388]
;W[ic]WL[406.868]C[One-eye in corner. OK. Now build framework while attacking.]
;B[bb]BL[509.409]
;W[ab]WL[392.975]
;B[he]BL[506.692]
;W[jf]WL[386.235]
;B[hg]BL[504.776]
;W[if]WL[381.869]
;B[hf]BL[502.475]C[I could D12... But seems unnatural and not really "attacking". I guess I boshi, then follow up to protect left.]
;W[hi]WL[373.602]
;B[fg]BL[498.126]
;W[dh]WL[364.996]C[Feels great and natural.]
;B[gi]BL[482.876]C[Hmm, contact play. If I follow his offer, he'll just get stronger, and he can attack what becomes of H11 later.

Maybe I'll just try to strengthen H11 without helping him.... J12.

(**Post-game thinking: In retrospect, J12, of course, leaves a cutting point and doesn't really "protect" H11 anyway. Therefore, maybe it's better to simply play something like D10 and be done with it..
Come to think of it... Was H11 good to begin with?**)]
;W[ih]WL[356.559]
;B[fi]BL[475.777]
;W[dj]WL[353.937]
;B[cl]BL[474.03]C[I guess he feels confident in living, a0nd will now invade..

Seems reasonable. I'll take away some eye space before answering.

]
;W[hh]WL[340.133]
;B[gh]BL[467.593]C[I guess I will defend B10 to get some solid points, then deal with C8 later.

(**Post-game thinking: I don't like B10, but I don't know what is better.**)]
;W[bj]WL[326.47]C[(**Post-game thinking: Seriously, what was better? :-) **)]
;B[el]BL[464.523]
;W[dr]WL[322.051]
;B[bn]BL[461.137]C[Hmm, C5? No, that's no good. Not many points there. I guess H3 to attack back.]
;W[hq]WL[314.845]
;B[cq]BL[456.677]
;W[dq]WL[313.076]
;B[co]BL[455.062]
;W[cp]WL[310.383]
;B[bp]BL[453.354]
;W[bq]WL[307.759]
;B[aq]BL[451.073]
;W[br]WL[304.575]
;B[iq]BL[449.712]C[Hmm, guess he doesn't care about F3. ]
;W[hp]WL[302.496]
;B[hr]BL[445.727]
;W[gr]WL[300.82]
;B[ir]BL[443.494]
;W[fr]WL[299.54]C[I feel "safe" except for J12 and R9... But he's pushing me around more than I would like.]
;B[mq]BL[442.05]C[Hmm. What should I help? I guess I help R9 because that's weak, and I can play P9 to naturally also help J12 in an indirect way...?]
;W[ok]WL[291.894]
;B[on]BL[437.214]C[Hmm, he plays some sort of attacking move. I feel he left R11 too weak. I will strike back.]
;W[qg]WL[288.059]C[(**Post-game thinking: Too aggressive?**)]
;B[pg]BL[435.074]
;W[qh]WL[286.644]
;B[ph]BL[433.696]
;W[ri]WL[284.839]
;B[pi]BL[432.533]C[Seriously? He's letting me have this so easily? I feel somewhat comfortable here.]
;W[rj]WL[283.066]
;B[rf]BL[430.984]C[Hmm, R14 S13 stuff can eiether capture S14 or cut Q15.. Seems good.]
;W[qf]WL[281.166]
;B[qe]BL[422.948]
;W[rg]WL[278.65]
;B[sg]BL[421.089]
;W[rh]WL[277.083]
;B[pe]BL[417.49]
;W[re]WL[275.081]C[(**Post-game thinking: Too early, maybe... It is probably better to protect J12 *right now*. I already live with S13, so no real point to it. Instead, I should HELP J12!

Maybe I should play something like M12? I don't know what move I should play, but I should help J12. Help J12, help J12, help J12, help J12!**)]
;B[rd]BL[414.365]
;W[sf]WL[273.716]
;B[ig]BL[411.472]C[Yeah... Should have helped J12.]
;W[jg]WL[270.153]C[(**Post-game thinking: Up until this point in the game, I don't know if I was always as calm as I should have been. But I can think of two moves I definitely didn't like: S15/T14 and maybe B10.

If I had protected J12, I would have felt a lot more comfortable... I don't know if the way I played was "correct" outside of these two moves, but that's my general thinking.**)]
;B[jh]BL[403.362]C[Hmm. Hane on either side just makes him stronger. Keep him not strong, and just help H11. I can't lose H11, so maybe H10.

(**Post-game thinking: Maybe it's even OK to lose H11. I dunno. **)]
;W[hj]WL[267.062]
;B[ji]BL[398.852]C[Just keep strengthening.]
;W[hl]WL[264.255]
;B[gk]BL[396.253]
;W[hk]WL[260.222]
;B[mh]BL[391.818]C[Hmm. Maybe I can cut him and kill something.

(**Post-game thinking: No... I should protect H8 first. This is a terrible idea when H8 is not strong. I should have strengthened H8 first with maybe H6 or possibly with L8 or something of that nature. Maybe L9.

Anyway, something to make it stronger.

Then after that, I should come back to attack if he hasn't done anything about it.

First I should have protected myself.]
;W[fk]WL[250.481]
;B[gj]BL[386.389]
;W[gl]WL[248.242]
;B[ek]BL[384.228]
;W[ej]WL[246.573]
;B[fl]BL[380.36]
;W[fj]WL[244.953]
;B[fe]BL[367.848]
;W[dm]WL[216.645]C[(**Post-game thinking: Still a bad idea. I should help H8 first.**)]
;B[ck]BL[363.885]
;W[ao]WL[209.226]
;B[fn]BL[358.704]
;W[do]WL[204.989]C[(**Post-game thinking: Seems risky, still...**)]
;B[cj]BL[351.876]
;W[ci]WL[203.344]
;B[bk]BL[347.928]
;W[bi]WL[201.826]
;B[gm]BL[324.378]
;W[hm]WL[183.521]
;B[hn]BL[322.077]
;W[em]WL[181.675]
;B[fm]BL[319.536]
;W[in]WL[179.633]
;B[ho]BL[318.152]
;W[io]WL[167.927]
;B[go]BL[302.332]
;W[fo]WL[165.852]
;B[fp]BL[299.031]
;W[eo]WL[163.176]
;B[an]BL[293.987]
;W[ap]WL[158.745]
;B[bo]BL[291.704]
;W[bm]WL[150.884]
;B[cm]BL[288.908]
;W[ap]WL[146.057]
;B[im]BL[286.686]C[Uh oh.]
;W[jm]WL[111.789]
;B[ip]BL[274.434]C[Oh no...]
;W[gq]WL[84.519]
;B[jn]BL[262.831]C[What?

(**Post game thinking: I think this was a mistake by him. He could have ran at J8 to make two weaknesses: J6 and H7. I think this was his mistake, and cost him his life.**)]
;W[il]WL[80.091]
;B[jo]BL[260.346]
;W[im]WL[76.494]
;B[km]BL[258.766]
;W[kl]WL[74.624]
;B[ll]BL[257.139]
;W[lm]WL[72.906]
;B[kn]BL[255.154]
;W[lk]WL[67.646]
;B[ml]BL[253.621]C[N5 area is kind of big... Oh well, if I kill him maybe it's OK.]
;W[kk]WL[63.419]
;B[mk]BL[251.08]
;W[mj]WL[61.358]
;B[lj]BL[249.012]
;W[li]WL[47.25]
;B[kj]BL[247.159]
;W[jj]WL[45.152]
;B[nj]BL[240.029]
;W[ki]WL[41.836]C[He resigned.])

_________________
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 Post subject: Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Post #42 Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:08 am 
Oza

Posts: 2463
Location: DC
Liked others: 145
Was liked: 435
Universal go server handle: skydyr
Online playing schedule: When my wife is out.
Kirby wrote:
I won this game, but I kind of stole it. I think my opponent could have played differently for one move, and maybe would have won.

That said, before that I should have protected my weakness, and maybe it would still be an unknown result.



(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[6.50]TM[600]OT[5x20 byo-yomi]
PW[me]PB[adversary]WR[1k]BR[1k]DT[2013-06-17]C[I played white.]RE[W+Resign]
;B[qd]BL[591.454]
;W[dd]WL[597.769]
;B[pq]BL[586.396]
;W[dp]WL[594.554]
;B[fc]BL[584.36]C[Just calmly respond. I'm even white this game...]
;W[cf]WL[591.046]
;B[fq]BL[581.308]C[Hm. He plays like I do. Haha.

I could C6, but it seems more balanced to do D6.]
;W[dn]WL[580.988]
;B[jp]BL[578.875]C[Basically Kobayashi fuseki, but I don't know if it counts with R16 instead of Q16.

Anyway, I "know" that Q5 and R5 are wrong. I think it's because black's followup pincer is good for black...

I also "know" that it's possible to play R6 here.

But even though I "know" this, I do not really *know* this. I haven't had much experience with it to know it's bad...

So maybe I'll simply play Q5 even though I "know" it's bad...

Well. Black's pincer wouldn't be super great... So I guess I'll play what I "know" and go with R6. It's less likely he'll pincer, and I can make a calm base on the right side.

(**Post-game thinking: I didn't really know.**)]
;W[qn]WL[456.728]
;B[qp]BL[567.984]C[I wonder if R10 is OK...? Reminds me of Ishida's dictionary. Still, I don't understand it. So I'll play R9. He'll crunch me with R11 almost for sure - I know I would.

But I'll then tenuki to play on top.

I see a lot of various sequences on how to "attack" a two space extension like I'll make R9.

But I don't think white is in super bad shape with anything I remember...

So I can afford to tenuki.]
;W[qk]WL[453.695]
;B[qi]BL[564.155]
;W[od]WL[449.365]C[(**Post-game thinking: I'm not sure if it's OK to tenuki now or not. But maybe it's OK.**)]
;B[oc]BL[556.474]
;W[nc]WL[444.828]C[OK, perfect, now I can select what I want to play on top - given he's already F17, I'll K17 after O16.

(**Post-game thinking: In retrospect, maybe N16, him Q14 or whatever, then me J17 is better - seems like a tighter pincer.**)]
;B[pc]BL[555.488]
;W[nd]WL[443.373]
;B[pf]BL[554.588]
;W[jc]WL[440.457]
;B[dc]BL[552.194]
;W[cc]WL[438.107]
;B[cb]BL[550.372]
;W[ec]WL[427.973]
;B[db]BL[548.62]C[E16 should be OK. If he ignores E18, I can play there, and it goes so so with K17 et. al.]
;W[ed]WL[426.565]
;B[eb]BL[545.706]
;W[bc]WL[424.288]
;B[hc]BL[537.406]C[Cannot... resist... playing... G18!]
;W[gb]WL[415.92]C[(**Post-game thinking: This wasn't too "calm". I don't know if it was good.**)]
;B[gc]BL[529.093]
;W[hb]WL[410.177]
;B[fb]BL[516.388]
;W[ic]WL[406.868]C[One-eye in corner. OK. Now build framework while attacking.]
;B[bb]BL[509.409]
;W[ab]WL[392.975]
;B[he]BL[506.692]
;W[jf]WL[386.235]
;B[hg]BL[504.776]
;W[if]WL[381.869]
;B[hf]BL[502.475]C[I could D12... But seems unnatural and not really "attacking". I guess I boshi, then follow up to protect left.]
;W[hi]WL[373.602]
;B[fg]BL[498.126]
;W[dh]WL[364.996]C[Feels great and natural.]
;B[gi]BL[482.876]C[Hmm, contact play. If I follow his offer, he'll just get stronger, and he can attack what becomes of H11 later.

Maybe I'll just try to strengthen H11 without helping him.... J12.

(**Post-game thinking: In retrospect, J12, of course, leaves a cutting point and doesn't really "protect" H11 anyway. Therefore, maybe it's better to simply play something like D10 and be done with it..
Come to think of it... Was H11 good to begin with?**)]
;W[ih]WL[356.559]
;B[fi]BL[475.777]
;W[dj]WL[353.937]
;B[cl]BL[474.03]C[I guess he feels confident in living, a0nd will now invade..

Seems reasonable. I'll take away some eye space before answering.

]
;W[hh]WL[340.133]
;B[gh]BL[467.593]C[I guess I will defend B10 to get some solid points, then deal with C8 later.

(**Post-game thinking: I don't like B10, but I don't know what is better.**)]
;W[bj]WL[326.47]C[(**Post-game thinking: Seriously, what was better? :-) **)]
;B[el]BL[464.523]
;W[dr]WL[322.051]
;B[bn]BL[461.137]C[Hmm, C5? No, that's no good. Not many points there. I guess H3 to attack back.]
;W[hq]WL[314.845]
;B[cq]BL[456.677]
;W[dq]WL[313.076]
;B[co]BL[455.062]
;W[cp]WL[310.383]
;B[bp]BL[453.354]
;W[bq]WL[307.759]
;B[aq]BL[451.073]
;W[br]WL[304.575]
;B[iq]BL[449.712]C[Hmm, guess he doesn't care about F3. ]
;W[hp]WL[302.496]
;B[hr]BL[445.727]
;W[gr]WL[300.82]
;B[ir]BL[443.494]
;W[fr]WL[299.54]C[I feel "safe" except for J12 and R9... But he's pushing me around more than I would like.]
;B[mq]BL[442.05]C[Hmm. What should I help? I guess I help R9 because that's weak, and I can play P9 to naturally also help J12 in an indirect way...?]
;W[ok]WL[291.894]
;B[on]BL[437.214]C[Hmm, he plays some sort of attacking move. I feel he left R11 too weak. I will strike back.]
;W[qg]WL[288.059]C[(**Post-game thinking: Too aggressive?**)]
;B[pg]BL[435.074]
;W[qh]WL[286.644]
;B[ph]BL[433.696]
;W[ri]WL[284.839]
;B[pi]BL[432.533]C[Seriously? He's letting me have this so easily? I feel somewhat comfortable here.]
;W[rj]WL[283.066]
;B[rf]BL[430.984]C[Hmm, R14 S13 stuff can eiether capture S14 or cut Q15.. Seems good.]
;W[qf]WL[281.166]
;B[qe]BL[422.948]
;W[rg]WL[278.65]
;B[sg]BL[421.089]
;W[rh]WL[277.083]
;B[pe]BL[417.49]
;W[re]WL[275.081]C[(**Post-game thinking: Too early, maybe... It is probably better to protect J12 *right now*. I already live with S13, so no real point to it. Instead, I should HELP J12!

Maybe I should play something like M12? I don't know what move I should play, but I should help J12. Help J12, help J12, help J12, help J12!**)]
;B[rd]BL[414.365]
;W[sf]WL[273.716]
;B[ig]BL[411.472]C[Yeah... Should have helped J12.]
;W[jg]WL[270.153]C[(**Post-game thinking: Up until this point in the game, I don't know if I was always as calm as I should have been. But I can think of two moves I definitely didn't like: S15/T14 and maybe B10.

If I had protected J12, I would have felt a lot more comfortable... I don't know if the way I played was "correct" outside of these two moves, but that's my general thinking.**)]
;B[jh]BL[403.362]C[Hmm. Hane on either side just makes him stronger. Keep him not strong, and just help H11. I can't lose H11, so maybe H10.

(**Post-game thinking: Maybe it's even OK to lose H11. I dunno. **)]
;W[hj]WL[267.062]
;B[ji]BL[398.852]C[Just keep strengthening.]
;W[hl]WL[264.255]
;B[gk]BL[396.253]
;W[hk]WL[260.222]
;B[mh]BL[391.818]C[Hmm. Maybe I can cut him and kill something.

(**Post-game thinking: No... I should protect H8 first. This is a terrible idea when H8 is not strong. I should have strengthened H8 first with maybe H6 or possibly with L8 or something of that nature. Maybe L9.

Anyway, something to make it stronger.

Then after that, I should come back to attack if he hasn't done anything about it.

First I should have protected myself.]
;W[fk]WL[250.481]
;B[gj]BL[386.389]
;W[gl]WL[248.242]
;B[ek]BL[384.228]
;W[ej]WL[246.573]
;B[fl]BL[380.36]
;W[fj]WL[244.953]
;B[fe]BL[367.848]
;W[dm]WL[216.645]C[(**Post-game thinking: Still a bad idea. I should help H8 first.**)]
;B[ck]BL[363.885]
;W[ao]WL[209.226]
;B[fn]BL[358.704]
;W[do]WL[204.989]C[(**Post-game thinking: Seems risky, still...**)]
;B[cj]BL[351.876]
;W[ci]WL[203.344]
;B[bk]BL[347.928]
;W[bi]WL[201.826]
;B[gm]BL[324.378]
;W[hm]WL[183.521]
;B[hn]BL[322.077]
;W[em]WL[181.675]
;B[fm]BL[319.536]
;W[in]WL[179.633]
;B[ho]BL[318.152]
;W[io]WL[167.927]
;B[go]BL[302.332]
;W[fo]WL[165.852]
;B[fp]BL[299.031]
;W[eo]WL[163.176]
;B[an]BL[293.987]
;W[ap]WL[158.745]
;B[bo]BL[291.704]
;W[bm]WL[150.884]
;B[cm]BL[288.908]
;W[ap]WL[146.057]
;B[im]BL[286.686]C[Uh oh.]
;W[jm]WL[111.789]
;B[ip]BL[274.434]C[Oh no...]
;W[gq]WL[84.519]
;B[jn]BL[262.831]C[What?

(**Post game thinking: I think this was a mistake by him. He could have ran at J8 to make two weaknesses: J6 and H7. I think this was his mistake, and cost him his life.**)]
;W[il]WL[80.091]
;B[jo]BL[260.346]
;W[im]WL[76.494]
;B[km]BL[258.766]
;W[kl]WL[74.624]
;B[ll]BL[257.139]
;W[lm]WL[72.906]
;B[kn]BL[255.154]
;W[lk]WL[67.646]
;B[ml]BL[253.621]C[N5 area is kind of big... Oh well, if I kill him maybe it's OK.]
;W[kk]WL[63.419]
;B[mk]BL[251.08]
;W[mj]WL[61.358]
;B[lj]BL[249.012]
;W[li]WL[47.25]
;B[kj]BL[247.159]
;W[jj]WL[45.152]
;B[nj]BL[240.029]
;W[ki]WL[41.836]C[He resigned.])


I didn't like H11 either. It seems to drive black into the area where white wants to make points. I don't see a good attacking move to play right away, as black has good center access, an eye on the side, and potential for one around G12 or so. I would probably just play a move on the left side to profit and see if black neglects his group too much later on. If black tries to invade the left side right away, he may cause that group problems once white is strengthened. White's top left group is also fairly thick already, so white might be able to just play a move to strengthen the right side group and let black try to figure out where to go from there.


This post by skydyr was liked by: Kirby
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 Post subject: Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Post #43 Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:56 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 8661
Liked others: 1488
Was liked: 1470
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
So my company gives out these cards - they're called "ORCA" cards. Basically, they let you ride public transportation for free. I've been meaning to save on gas and ride the bus to work, so today I did. I brought along my iPad, on which I have a few PDFs containing various go problems. I've been telling myself I only have time for games, but I couldn't resist ez4u's advice that it's time for me to study more go problems. And what better opportunity than on the way to work?

So equipped with my trusty iPad, I walked to the bus stop today, and rode the bus to work. I solved several go problems, and I felt great at work. It was a great way to make my mind wake up. Correspondingly, when I left to go home, I also rode the bus, so I did the same on the way home. I was mentally tired from work, but I still solved a good number of problems. I'd say that each problem takes me about a minute to solve, unless I remember the shape, in which case, I remember the problem...

And the result? Today, I have a game to show, which I am utterly ashamed to post. Despite having done go problems during my commute to and from work - something I've done for the first time in awhile - I couldn't didn't(?) read at all today. Certainly, there are other games that I've posted here in which I did not read well. But I am sincerely embarrassed of this one.

But alas, I've decided to play games and post them here when I have. I won't hide this embarrassing game. I only feel sorry to those that feel inclined to observe it, as it is filled with poor play!

But maybe I'll try to commute by bus again tomorrow. Maybe if I keep playing each day, doing go problems here and there, maybe, just maybe, I can get better than the 1d/1k that I've been for years.

Then again, maybe not. But at least I'll have fun trying. :-)





(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[0.50]TM[1500]OT[5x30 byo-yomi]
PW[me]PB[adversary]WR[1d]BR[1k]DT[2013-06-18]C[I played white this game. I am ashamed of it.]RE[B+Resign]
;B[pd]BL[1499.361]
;W[dp]WL[1484.696]
;B[pp]BL[1497.998]
;W[dd]WL[1482.602]
;B[fq]BL[1496.564]
;W[cn]WL[1480.588]
;B[dr]BL[1495.537]C[Hmm, something like H3 or something? Nah, let's just be normal and do C3, then do O17.]
;W[cq]WL[1459.92]
;B[iq]BL[1492.438]
;W[nc]WL[1457.738]
;B[fc]BL[1486.899]C[Should I pincer? Hmm, not much I can do with O17 right now. Seems more natural and balanced to simply D14.]
;W[df]WL[1431.162]
;B[db]BL[1478.285]C[Hmm. Seems passive to C17 yet again. I could do H17, and it'd likely be that joseki where he C17 then I go with E17, et. al...

That leaves some influence toward the center with the D14 stones... But what of O17?

I don't know how he'll respond to O17 or if it'll be useful. Let's double approach top right and see what he does.]
;W[qf]WL[1405.505]
;B[pf]BL[1459.781]
;W[pg]WL[1387.977]
;B[of]BL[1458.572]
;W[qc]WL[1386.074]
;B[qe]BL[1454.525]C[So he gives me O17... If he tenukis, maybe I can go ahead and H17, as considered earlier.]
;W[pc]WL[1383.976]
;B[lc]BL[1451.523]C[Hmm, no tenuki. I guess I will protect at C17.]
;W[cc]WL[1378.249]
;B[ob]BL[1448.812]C[Darn, I was too hasty.

Of course P17 doesn't give much eye space. It'd be cool to play P16 in sente, so then I could capture P18 with O18. Maybe if I play S15, I can then play P16 to threaten to atari at R16...

(**Post-game thinking: My reading is not doing well today... :-( **)
]
;W[re]WL[1334.558]
;B[rf]BL[1444.945]
;W[od]WL[1320.466]
;B[oc]BL[1436.104]
;W[qd]WL[1316.934]
;B[pe]BL[1434.595]
;W[sd]WL[1309.358]
;B[qg]BL[1432.597]C[Woops... Man, something's wrong with me today.]
;W[nb]WL[1299.665]
;B[nd]BL[1430.643]
;W[oa]WL[1296.651]
;B[pb]BL[1428.315]
;W[qb]WL[1295.178]
;B[oe]BL[1427.224]
;W[pa]WL[1293.651]C[(**Post-game thinking: What in the world am I doing?**)]
;B[od]BL[1425.988]C[Hmm. I'm a little behind, now, I think. He has potential on the right. Seems like I big place to play...

]
;W[qn]WL[1288.878]C[(**Post-game thinking: Maybe R7 is better...?**)]
;B[pl]BL[1413.152]C[Okay, I should make a presense here. I'll jump out at P6 to counter his right influence.]
;W[on]WL[1285.137]
;B[np]BL[1409.459]
;W[rp]WL[1283.381]
;B[rm]BL[1408.229]C[Hmm. Odd. I guess I take corner with R3.]
;W[qq]WL[1280.771]
;B[rn]BL[1405.952]
;W[qo]WL[1207.598]
;B[qp]BL[1404.608]
;W[ro]WL[1204.965]
;B[pq]BL[1403.703]
;W[rr]WL[1203.286]
;B[qr]BL[1400.22]
;W[rq]WL[1201.992]
;B[pr]BL[1397.304]C[Hmm... :-( I guess I have to run with this group. He can profit in Q10 area... I want to play something around Q10, but that's no good.. I'll just have two weak groups.

OTOH, I don't want to give him that area, either. I guess I just jump out to strengthen my group and give him as little as possible...]
;W[mn]WL[1196.793]
;B[lp]BL[1388.49]C[Hmm. Q10, though it's my instinct, is definitely no-no. That'd just give me two weak groups. I could do something like O8 or O9, maybe.. But that's forcing to give him more territory...

I don't like this board position. I'm going to tenuki. But where?

Left side? Seems to protect myself. But I am behind. I guess his only weakness could be if I attacked F17. H17 it is...]
;W[hc]WL[1166.479]
;B[hd]BL[1367.53]C[Hmm, he strengthens himself. I will J16, he G16, I K17. Then if he J15, I can K15 to get some presense toward O12 area...]
;W[id]WL[1159.687]
;B[gd]BL[1365.936]
;W[jc]WL[1156.152]
;B[ch]BL[1357.507]C[Hmm. Maybe an opportunity? I can try to make both groups weak. First the top one...]
;W[cb]WL[1151.333]
;B[fg]BL[1351.256]C[Hmm. Seems wild. I will split him.]
;W[dh]WL[1143.631]
;B[di]BL[1349.207]
;W[eh]WL[1141.877]
;B[cg]BL[1347.82]C[Hmm. Safe would be E14. But I hate to lose points around C15.

(**Post-game thinking: I was greedy.**)]
;W[cf]WL[1125.319]
;B[cl]BL[1345.076]C[Hmm, cut at E14 still kinda undesirable... I guess I strengthen E12 for that case when I get cut so I can run easier. I do E11, probably in sente, then strengthen at C2.

(**Post-game thinking: I don't know what the right way to play is, but I feel I should maybe jump out at J14 or something. I've got to get central power if I am to have a chance here. N6 is weak. E12 is weak.. This is no good.**)]
;W[ei]WL[1117.75]
;B[dj]BL[1342.284]
;W[cr]WL[1114.781]
;B[if]BL[1333.493]C[(**Post-game thinking: My coffin is getting nailed...**)]
;W[jf]WL[1102.404]
;B[ib]BL[1330.05]C[Hmm, central power more important.]
;W[ig]WL[1098.776]
;B[ic]BL[1327.302]C[OK... So I H14 atari. If he J15 to save, it forces me to K16. Then if he protects J15, I H18 to capture him.

(**Post-game thinking: First of all, capturing J17 isn't the biggest thing in the world. Secondly, I of course misread that after he does K15, he can K18 and I have only two liberties. :-( **)]
;W[hf]WL[1063.084]
;B[ie]BL[1324.301]
;W[jd]WL[1061.34]
;B[je]BL[1310.753]
;W[he]WL[1055.159]C[(**Post-game thinking: I am so embarrassed of this play. **)]
;B[ke]BL[1308.812]
;W[kb]WL[1041.293]
;B[jb]BL[1296.008]C[Crap. Those stones are not going to do well. I guess the only thing I can do is try to sacrifice them. Then I will try to get central power with it. It's my only chance. ]
;W[kf]WL[949.344]
;B[jg]BL[1220.915]C[Hmm. Actually, now I can escape. M15 L16 L17 M16 M18.

(**Post-game thinking: Escaping is probably not the point. I think I need to do something at a larger scale.**)]
;W[le]WL[880.244]
;B[kd]BL[1218.064]
;W[kc]WL[877.199]
;B[ld]BL[1216.518]
;W[lb]WL[874.854]
;B[hg]BL[1191.381]
;W[ih]WL[868.751]
;B[gf]BL[1187.209]C[Okay, now I am OK with those stones. Maybe I capture J18, but first, I play F15 in sente to protect cut at E14.

(**Post-game thinking: This is wrong on so many levels.

1.) F15 does not protect the cut.
2.) F15 is aji keshi, and takes away my chance to hane at H12 in sente.
3.) J18 stones are not big, since his stones are safe.
4.) Central power is still more important.
5.) *Crying*
**)]
;W[fe]WL[838.137]
;B[ge]BL[1163.734]
;W[hb]WL[834.899]C[(**Post-game thinking: Sigh... I think the center is more important... But what do I do? I guess I play something like P9? I'm in no position to be aggressive now. H18 is definitely not the biggest place on the board, though.**)]
;B[dg]BL[1159.125]
;W[eg]WL[826.589]C[(**Post-game thinking: Why play here? The *only* benefit would be to somehow attack D11, but that's not going to happen. I should ignore and tenuki.**)]
;B[ef]BL[1158.123]C[Woops. This is embarrassing. I guess I go for center power?
]
;W[lg]WL[784.901]
;B[jh]BL[1155.196]
;W[li]WL[782.429]
;B[ji]BL[1149.918]
;W[lk]WL[776.858]
;B[nm]BL[1146.94]
;W[nn]WL[773.522]
;B[ll]BL[1144.514]C[Hmm. He's trying to split me. I should fight back. Maybe P8, then if he does P7, I can Q7 to threaten either R8 or N8 miai.

(I actually did read out him responding with Q7 for a second here, but for some reason I stopped thinking about it.)]
;W[ol]WL[753.827]
;B[pm]BL[1141.598]C[Man, that's no good. :-( If I passivly defend cut, I still have to run. He cuts off at P7, then that's no good. I guess I have only one choice. Try to kill Q8.

]
;W[qm]WL[682.855]
;B[ql]BL[1138.199]
;W[rk]WL[680.786]
;B[rl]BL[1136.407]
;W[om]WL[679.403]
;B[pn]BL[1135.018]
;W[po]WL[678.352]
;B[oo]BL[1133.547]C[All my chips are on the table.]
;W[qj]WL[674.66]
;B[pj]BL[1131.324]
;W[pi]WL[670.008]
;B[pk]BL[1106.698]
;W[qi]WL[634.699]
;B[oi]BL[1103.865]
;W[oh]WL[629.366]
;B[ni]BL[1099.178]
;W[nh]WL[625.604]
;B[mk]BL[1093.798]
;W[nk]WL[617.555]
;B[mj]BL[1087.825]C[Hmm, I guess O10 cuts him. He doesn't have a ton of liberties. Do I have a chance?]
;W[nj]WL[599.645]
;B[mi]BL[1037.452]
;W[oj]WL[597.802]
;B[nl]BL[1035.586]
;W[ok]WL[596.547]
;B[ln]BL[1034.07]C[Crap. I've lost.. What if M7, L7, N7, N8, L6, M5, L8, K7, M10. Then I've captured him! Maybe it works!]
;W[lm]WL[498.807]
;B[km]BL[1023.808]C[Wait... N7, N8, L6, then he doesn't have to M5. He can N5, I capture, he O5, I fill, he K6 and I'm dead in ladder.

Crap.

I guess it's game over. At least I should see if he sees this move, I guess.]
;W[mm]WL[448.873]
;B[ml]BL[1022.39]
;W[kn]WL[447.779]
;B[mo]BL[1018.476]C[Yup, he sees it, of course.

If I count, I'm behind for sure. I wonder if he'd let me live after I play S1. Maybe that's a good resign move.]
;W[rs]WL[342.717]
;B[so]BL[1013.038]
;W[sp]WL[336.117]
;B[sr]BL[1011.097]
;W[sn]WL[334.33]
;B[no]BL[1005.324]C[*I resign, hang my head, and sadly remember that I am sharing this game on L19. It's truly an embarrassment.*])


P.S. I did NOT play calmly.

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Post #44 Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:58 am 
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Kirby wrote:
But maybe I'll try to commute by bus again tomorrow.

I really look forward to train journeys I make; they're excellent opportunities to do things like tsumego (or learning vocabulary, or...) which I often just feel I don't have time to do at home. Train journeys are time I can't spend doing anything else.

Speaking of not having time: this thread looks interesting. I'll try to make time to read it and look at the games...


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Post #45 Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:12 am 
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I use the public system to watch a lot of go while commuting. It's fun and the time goes after.

I probably should do tsumego as well, but it's not quite as fun.


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Post #46 Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:13 am 
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Kirby wrote:
So my company gives out these cards - they're called "ORCA" cards. Basically, they let you ride public transportation for free.

they're not free -- your company is paying for them. and if you forget to "tap-off" the train or light-rail, then your company is charged for the full ride, rather than your actual destination.

but its definitely a benefit you should take advantage of.


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Post #47 Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:13 pm 
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xed_over wrote:
they're not free -- your company is paying for them. and if you forget to "tap-off" the train or light-rail, then your company is charged for the full ride, rather than your actual destination.


Yes, if it was not clear from the context of what I wrote, the cards permit me to ride public transportation free of charge to me.

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Post #48 Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:30 pm 
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What happened before the game:
Yesterday I didn't play a game online. I went to the Seattle Go Center to play. I've gone only a couple of times before, and usually I drive. These days I've been taking the bus (with my ORCA card), so I decided to try out going by bus. Unfortunately, I had to stay kind of late at work, and traffic was busy, so it took almost an hour to get there.

I got to the center, and almost everyone was playing games. I saw a gentleman watching another two playing, and asked him if he played, since he seemed like the only person watching a game and not playing. I didn't know him, but I guess he was a stronger player. When I told him my rank, he suggested a 4-stone handicap, with me being black.


We played the following approximate game:


After the game, he suggested that I study joseki.

What happened after the game:
I met L19's very own Dusk Eagle, and also a PhD student at UW named Dan. We had a nice chat, and then I tried to follow my handwritten instructions on how to take the bus home.

I had some issues getting to the bus stop I wanted to use for transferring, and I was 5 minutes late to the bus for my transfer. I waited for an hour to get on the last bus. Finally I was aboard, but the bus ran out of batteries, and we had to wait for another bus.

It was after 1am when I got home, and I went to bed around 2:30. I had an appointment at the dentist at 8am, and then went to work. So, I was pretty tired the whole day today.

Nonetheless, I had a great time, and plan on going again by bus next Tuesday if things work out.

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Post #49 Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:53 pm 
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Which brings us to today...


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Post #50 Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:55 pm 
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18 hurts me.


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Post #51 Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 10:27 pm 
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Shaddy wrote:
18 hurts me.


I wish I was skilled enough to understand your meaning.

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Post #52 Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 11:09 pm 
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Sorry, it's the game against Dusk Eagle

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Post #53 Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:57 pm 
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Shaddy wrote:
Sorry, it's the game against Dusk Eagle


The game I played at the club was not against Dusk Eagle. Presumably, the player is around 6d. In any case, move 18 may be bad - it seems kind of like aji keshi. But to be honest, I got the idea from a pro game I saw. I don't have the exact game, but here is example of what I saw in a pro game:

http://eidogo.com/#11Rd4s:0,33

Admittedly, this position is slightly different, as I have an additional stone in the area. However, the shape seemed similar, and I still wanted to split him. I'd be happy to hear about why the pro position is good, and why it is not good in this case.

Here are some other examples of the shape I was thinking of:
http://eidogo.com/#search:sw:6x5:.4x.4x.o.4xo.12

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Post #54 Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:01 pm 
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The only example I can see of something more similar to the pattern I have is here with this game between Sakai Takeshi 9p and Yokata Shigeaki 7p on move 19:



While it's true that I played this shape because it seemed similar to what I saw a pro play, I don't know *why* any of these are good or bad.

So to anyone that knows out there... Please discuss :-)

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Post #55 Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:44 pm 
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Kirby wrote:
Shaddy wrote:
18 hurts me.

I wish I was skilled enough to understand your meaning.

This may sound a little schizophrenic, but ...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Good or bad for B?
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O 2 . . .
$$ | . . 1 . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]

In this position, the exchange 1-2 might be good or bad, depending on the situation above. It could be good if it makes W over-concentrated, or if B can prevent W from making a base above and gets to launch a useful attack.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Bad for B?
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 2 O . . .
$$ | . . 1 . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]

But in this position, the exchange 1-2 just feels submissive and bad, at least early in the game. It may look like an attacking move, if B has strength above (as in your game), but it generally helps W more than B.


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Post #56 Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 8:48 pm 
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mitsun wrote:
...
This may sound a little schizophrenic, but ...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Good or bad for B?
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O 2 . . .
$$ | . . 1 . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]

In this position, the exchange 1-2 might be good or bad, depending on the situation above. It could be good if it makes W over-concentrated, or if B can prevent W from making a base above and gets to launch a useful attack.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Bad for B?
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 2 O . . .
$$ | . . 1 . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]

But in this position, the exchange 1-2 just feels submissive and bad, at least early in the game. It may look like an attacking move, if B has strength above (as in your game), but it generally helps W more than B.


Thank you for the comments, but could you elaborate a little more on this position, including :b3: as is shown in the pro games I linked? The only thing I feel I've learned is that the exchange is bad in my game, but there's not really an explanation of why.

For example, yeah I get that kicking can make white over-concentrated and heavy, as in this popular example:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . 2 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This makes sense to me. Yes, white gets over-concentrated, and we can work to attack him. The move on the bottom star point helps with that attack. I've heard this a lot, and sure, it makes sense.

But now that I've had the chance, I've located the precise game I was thinking of when I made this move. It's a game between Lee Changho and Komatsu Hideki from 1988. Here is the board position:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . X O X . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . O X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . c 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O a 3 . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . b 2 X . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So sure, we could argue that :w2: here is to make black over-concentrated to attack. But when I first saw this pro game, I didn't think that white could really attack black very much.

Why?

Because after black plays 'a', there are two cutting points at 'b' and at 'c'. So when I was reviewing this pro game, I thought to myself, "Why would he play :w2: and :w4: if he can't attack black?"

The answer I came up with was that white wanted to get out into the center and not be sealed in. The two cutting points at 'b' and 'c' were bait so that white could strengthen himself.

Sure enough, as the game proceeded:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . X O X . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . O X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 1 X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 4 3 C X . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So what has white accomplished here? He has very little attack on black, on either side. All that it really seems to have done is to get him out into the center.

So, in my feeble mind, I imagined that this was the point of such a move.

So let's compare this to the board position I was in:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . , . O . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . 2 1 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


In my mind's eye, I imagined that the same thing can happen here as what happened in the pro game I saw:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . , . O 1 X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . O C 3 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 6 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Of course, white doesn't have to play that way, but it seemed like the same concept. There are two weak points at 'a' and 'b', and I want to get into the center:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X b . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . , . O a X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . B . . B . . O X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


How is this different than the pro game I posted? I suppose one difference could be that the marked stones are weaker now.

Let's suppose the board position was slightly different:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . , . O . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . X . . O X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Would it be OK to play the sequence now?

I understand that what you're saying in that the kick has potential to help white. But what I really don't get is the reason it was OK in the pro's game, and how it really differs from my situation. What was the rationale in the pro game? It certainly didn't seem like an attacking strategy there.

Again, my previous idea was that the pro's intention was to get out into the center, while preventing funny business in the corner. I thought I had a similar play here.

But...?

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 Post subject: Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Post #57 Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:12 pm 
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Well, aside from the talk about move 18 in my other game, here's a game I just played today. I lost by a few points.


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Post #58 Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 11:57 am 
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This is an interesting study question. I certainly do not have all the answers, but here are a few thoughts.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Lee Changho and Komatsu Hideki
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . X O X . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . O X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 3 . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 X . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Let's assume W decides to play :w4: to split B. What are the pros/cons of the preliminary 2-3 exchange? I admit that I would probably not think to play this way, but it is an interesting option.

Pro: The two B stones are heavier than a single stone, so any attack is severe. The stable W group at K3 makes this attractive.
Pro: B can no longer slide to D2 to settle the right side group
Con: The two B stones are stronger than a single stone, and W leaves lots of cutting points which B might exploit.
Pro & Con: The invasion at C3 is still wide open. Without the 2-3 exchange, a direct C3 invasion would probably be the expected continuation. Maybe W wanted to make this invasion less attractive for B, by making the right side larger?

Now let's look at your game:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Kirby
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . , . O . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . 2 1 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Again let's assume that B decides to play :b3: to split W (a fine plan). What are the pros/cons of the preliminary 1-2 exchange?

Pro: W becomes heavier, presenting a larger target for attack. But I guess W would not really contemplate sacrificing the single stone, so maybe it is heavy enough already.
Con: W becomes stronger, and B leaves multiple cutting points.
Pro & Con: the weakness at P3 remains. Perhaps it even becomes more of a problem once W has a stone at M3.

Suppose B omits the 1-2 exchange, what can W do locally? With a high stone at M4 rather than a low stone at M3, the slide to O2 does not exist. W can peep at P3 immediately, but if B simply blocks at P4, W cannot connect to the M4 stone. So I guess I do not see much benefit to B from this exchange.

Now suppose W had a stone at M3 initially, rather than a stone at M4. In that case, I think the kick would be more reasonable (even though the ending position is the same), since it does prevent the W slide to O2.

Anyway, I think I will stop here, before I get myself even more confused. Thanks for presenting an interesting position to consider :)


This post by mitsun was liked by 2 people: Kirby, Splatted
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 Post subject: Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Post #59 Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 12:55 pm 
Honinbo

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mitsun wrote:
This is an interesting study question. I certainly do not have all the answers, but here are a few thoughts...


First of all, excellent post. It was very interesting to compare the pros/cons of each scenario.

mitsun wrote:
Pro & Con: The invasion at C3 is still wide open. Without the 2-3 exchange, a direct C3 invasion would probably be the expected continuation. Maybe W wanted to make this invasion less attractive for B, by making the right side larger?


The idea of making the invasion less attractive kind of captures my feeling in playing the kick as well. I thought that it would be useful against P3, but...

mitsun wrote:
(If B omits the 1-2 exchange...)
W can peep at P3 immediately, but if B simply blocks at P4, W cannot connect to the M4 stone.


This is an excellent point! Based on the shape, I did not read that the kick did not help in preventing the P3 peep - it was just my intuition. This goes along very well with your other point that the pro game's kick prevents the slide at O2, whereas I am not really preventing much at all with the kick.

I'm still confused about this position, too, but at least now I feel like the pro's game had value in the kick in ways that my game did not.

mitsun wrote:
Now suppose W had a stone at M3 initially, rather than a stone at M4. In that case, I think the kick would be more reasonable (even though the ending position is the same), since it does prevent the W slide to O2.


Hmm, the plot thickens... I think this is why I get so confused with tewari! :-?

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 Post subject: Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Post #60 Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:38 pm 
Honinbo

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Alas, I have lost once again today. This time by 4.5 points. This is rather unusual, because in my experience, I usually lose by more or win by more. This is the second game in a row where it was a difference of less than 5 points.

I wonder if this is reason for me to give value to endgame. I feel I get worse as the game progresses. I'm not an expert in the opening, but at least I've seen several openings. As I get further into the game, I have less and less experience, since many of my games don't make it to the endgame. So again, it's very interesting to lose by a small amount like this.

In this game, I don't know exactly where I went wrong. Maybe it was a lot of little things. Maybe invading the bottom left was bad. Maybe not aggressively attacking his group was bad. In any case, the result was a 4.5 point loss. Alas, it is a sad start of the weekend.


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