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 Post subject: Re: paK0's goals and dreams
Post #261 Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 2:09 am 
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The review as promised.



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Post #262 Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 8:22 am 
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Thanks, the variation at 83 looks really cool, I'll try to remember that, that has to come in handy sometimes.

Ok, another game today. This one I won, but only because my opponent blundered in the endgame. I think the top left went really poorly for me and a lot of the game was spent trying to not let white get a lot in the middle. Between this and the last game I played so much worse, but still won, go is strange sometimes. I wonder if I'll ever get more consistent...



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Post #263 Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 9:23 am 
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Knotwilg's squeeze for 83 is of course much better than your connect, but I don't like his 87. j10 looks much better shape. With his there is theoretically a cut: if white cuts at B and you atari then A is atari and cut above, and if black extends after B then B can escape (although only into a giant black wall below).

It's rather like this shape of 10:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . 0 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . 4 . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . 6 2 3 O 8 a .
$$ | . . . . . O . 1 5 7 . 9 .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +--------------------------[/go]


I remember as a kyu thinking this alternative was so cool and clever because it meant you could net both sides so defending both cuts at once (the hanging connection doesn't locally defend the cut to the right, though if a is sente white can atari and net it, black 9 might be on the 2nd line to stop that):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . 0 . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . 4 . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . 6 2 3 O 8 . .
$$ | . . . . . O . 1 5 7 . 9 .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +--------------------------[/go]


However, this shape is rather bad, for example black has two vital point peeps (yes it's not quite this bad as we can resist):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm11 Ouch!
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . 1 . O . 3 . .
$$ | . . . . . . . 2 O 4 . . .
$$ | . . . X . . O O X O O . .
$$ | . . . . . O . X X X . X .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +--------------------------[/go]


Also the 2 basic nets don't actually work:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm11
$$ | . . . . . . . 6 . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . 2 5 O 7 4 . .
$$ | . . . . . . . 1 O 3 . . .
$$ | . . . X . . O O X O O . .
$$ | . . . . . O . X X X . X .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +--------------------------[/go]


Though the knight's move net does:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm11
$$ | . . . . . . 2 . 6 . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . 5 O . 4 . .
$$ | . . . . . . . 1 O 3 . . .
$$ | . . . X . . O O X O O . .
$$ | . . . . . O . X X X . X .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +--------------------------[/go]


Anyway, the hanging connection is nearly always better (though black cutting the other side might be powerful later). The "it's better to do one job well than two jobs badly" idea. I don't think I've ever seen the "clever" nobi in a high-level game. I don't think your game will suffer if Knotwilg's k9 / the nobi here is not a part of your Go vocabulary.


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 Post subject: Re: paK0's goals and dreams
Post #264 Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 7:32 am 
Oza

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paK0 wrote:
@skydyr:
H16/17: I'll consider the hane next time. During the game I felt like I got a good result after D11 and I wasn't sure if I can hane safely because the push at E17 is still there for white. On the other hand there isn't a lot of potential on the top for him, so I was less scared of his hane there.

R11: Do you have a suggestion for a followup for black? I think at that stage of the game taking cash should have been the win for me(provided I don't fail to kill the invasion there^^) so I wasn't looking to hard, but even now I have trouble to find a satisfying move. Q9 looks natural, but it seems to go into a hard fight.


For H16/H17 I didn't necessarily mean that it should be played immediately in the joseki, just that by the time white gets it, black should have been able to get to it first, and that it's quite large at that time.

I don't have a specific followup for R11, and your move seems decent enough. Cutting is definitely worth considering, but that doesn't mean it's right and I don't think it works directly here. I wrote the comments quite quickly, and got a sense from the late middle-game that white was pushing black around with white's weak stones, when it should have been the other way around. Apologies if it wasn't clear.

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 Post subject: Re: paK0's goals and dreams
Post #265 Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 10:14 am 
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Uberdude wrote:
Knotwilg's squeeze for 83 is of course much better than your connect, but I don't like his 87. j10 looks much better shape. With his there is theoretically a cut: if white cuts at B and you atari then A is atari and cut above, and if black extends after B then B can escape (although only into a giant black wall below).


Thanks Uberdude.

I wasn't too sure of the clever move myself. I found both hanging connections too slow given the extent of Black's wall but indeed J10 is probably "honte".

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 Post subject: Re: paK0's goals and dreams
Post #266 Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 10:58 am 
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Highlights:

:w28: After this move, both ignored the key point for influence
:b53: - :b55: We've seen this anti-pattern in your games
:b79: & :b85: cut on a large scale
125-127: you got caught up in the motions on the right side while it had become small, so lost the initiative in the endgame twice
167-185: on the other hand you win a lot in the later endgame and here it is White who is following you around
234: White makes a losing move; it was not necessary at all to lose these stones

I think the quality of your game was not bad at all. The major takeaway here I think is :b79: (and the more daring :b85:): when you are strong, cut the opponent on a large scale.



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 Post subject: Re: paK0's goals and dreams
Post #267 Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 10:43 am 
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@Uberdude: Thanks, the more you know...

@Knotwilg: As always, thanks for the review, one question though. You called J14 a key point for influence. I see what it does locally, but influcence there seems to be kinda wasted, since I can't make a huge mojo with R13 in place and I'm not sure if an attack on the right side might be feasible.

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 Post subject: Re: paK0's goals and dreams
Post #268 Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 6:17 am 
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Ok, so usually I use my study journal mostly to get game reviews, so instead today a little update on my study plans. Christmas is coming up, so after one more test I will be free from university(for two weeks at least), so I got some more time to spend on go. I already tried my new schedule the last few days and it seems to be doable.

- Play three Blitz games every day. I used to play with slower time settings, but in blitz I make more obvious mistakes, meaning its easier for me to review my own games. I upped the handicap range to maximum, I guess its the best way to get to play stronger players on a regular basis. And finally 3 games are more then one, even if they are shorter.

- Work through Cho's elementary problems. So I finally decided to get anki and try it like this, I already use spaced repetition for language learning, maybe it works with go as well.

- Some Joseki study. I've been going through 38 basic joseki for the last few days to finally shore that area up. I try to work through them and not just memorize it, so each chapter takes quite a bit of time, but the book is written well enough for it not to get boring.

I might still throw in a slow game every now and then and get it reviewed, but lets see how this will turn out for the moment.

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Post #269 Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 7:43 am 
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paK0 wrote:
Play three Blitz games every day. I used to play with slower time settings, but in blitz I make more obvious mistakes, meaning its easier for me to review my own games. I upped the handicap range to maximum, I guess its the best way to get to play stronger players on a regular basis. And finally 3 games are more then one, even if they are shorter.


Just adding in my experience and everyone's different, but ...

What I've learned from playing blitz is not to play blitz. All sorts of things happen in blitz, like network connection timing out but more importantly you giving yourself too much of a break and drift into mindless, careless playing that doesn't reflect your real playing ability and ultimately even degrades your game. It can reveal some hard baked bad habits or wrong intuition though - in any case I wouldn't review blitz games beyond the early middle game.

I've seen too many game reviews that vary on the theme "what a moron I am when I stop thinking". Well yeah.

Have fun though!

Edit: oh and you left a question for me. Looking back at it it indeed may not look like an all important point but I really think it is. If Black plays it, then White's group is still in bad shape. If White plays it and Black responds, then White's shape is better than before and Black is a bit stronger than before but overall the balance is restored more for White. If Black does not respond, the ponnuki turns White in to a strong group and Black's top is prone to invasion.

The only drawback of playing there for White is to lose the option of cutting a stone. In that situation such prospect would be too ambitious.
For Black the drawback of playing there would be loss of tempo. I think keeping White weak there is good enough a result, even if it is not absolute sente.

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Post #270 Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 8:00 am 
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As for blitz play, I have never played blitz myself. But Bruce Wilcox, who had great success helping kyu players to advance rapidly, recommended it, at a pace of one 19x19 game in 15 min. :)

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 Post subject: Re: paK0's goals and dreams
Post #271 Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 7:35 am 
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Knotwilg wrote:

I've seen too many game reviews that vary on the theme "what a moron I am when I stop thinking". Well yeah.



This will definitely happen. But I really hope that this will help my basics. I think blitz is more about finding the move that works in 90% of situations that are similar to the current one, rather then finding the one that is needed exactly now. Obviously this will result in a game that looks poorly played, but this is probably true as well for one-hour games if you look at them through the eyes of a correspondence player.


@Bill: Cool. I looked for some information, but couldn't find any, do you know weather there are other specific things among his recommendations? Maybe blitz games are one little piece of a big master plan?^^

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Post #272 Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 9:25 am 
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paK0 wrote:
@Bill: Cool. I looked for some information, but couldn't find any, do you know weather there are other specific things among his recommendations? Maybe blitz games are one little piece of a big master plan?^^


Wilcox introduced his EZGo in a series of articles in the AGA Journal in the 1970s, which is where I remember that from. I doubt if there is much in those articles that he did not publish later.

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 Post subject: Re: paK0's goals and dreams
Post #273 Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 2:28 pm 
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Ok thanks, I guess I'll keep looking.

Anyways, here a game(I'm black). I'm not asking for a full review, but I have a question on a specific move: 61

Is there some kind of standard response to this? So far I played mostly with receiving handicap, and a lot of my opponents use the 3-3 invasion against a corner that I think should be safe. Is it just to unsettle me or is there really aji there? Thanks in advance.



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Post #274 Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 3:09 pm 
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First, at :b30:, black needs to play at B11 to help the lone stone, and not the strong group.

As for :w61:, this is a sharp move, and it works because black's corner is basically surrounded. Playing the empty triangle at R16 may work, but it's complicated and I think the mistake comes earlier.

At :b50:, capping like this is quite aggressive. It's not necessarily wrong, but a more restrained approach might be to take the side with R12 or so and let white run out while black consolidates the top.

Later, at :b54:, what is the purpose of this move, exactly? Black could instead consider P16 to solidify the corner while keeping up the pressure. Black's O14 stone would have miai to connect to either side, and if white pushes through, he's still just running heavily and O14 can be sacrificed having done its job.

In a sense, I feel like black's aim here is to kill, but it's a bit unreasonable and black could just take profit solidly instead, avoiding the troublesome situation altogether.


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Post #275 Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 4:41 pm 
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This corner invasion is quite common and reasonable. There is a lot of aji here, with the threat of a cut or connenction. The surrounding B stones need to be quite strong for B to be able to kill the invading stone outright.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B common invasion
$$ +--------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . W . X O . O . .
$$ | . . . X . O . . . .
$$ | . . X O O . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +--------------------[/go]


There are a few standard continuations, but really only one you should memorize. This is appropriate when B is relatively weak and wants to make a safe base in the corner. It lets W take part of the corner in sente, but it leaves B with good shape and no worries about living. When studying this sequence, make sure you figure out why W must capture at move 6, letting B connect underneath, rather than descending to keep B separated.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B safety first
$$ +--------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 5 3 2 . . . . .
$$ | . 7 O 4 X O . O . .
$$ | . . 1 X 6 O . . . .
$$ | . . X O O . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +--------------------[/go]


If you feel B might be strong enough to kill the W invasion, then there is no substitute for trying to read out the entire fight. Every position is a little different, so guidelines or standard continuations will not really help.

In this particular position, blocking directly as shown below seems like the best try, but the fight is difficult for both sides. Here is how the first few moves might go. Trying to work out the result would be a really good exercise, more for the reading practice than because the same sequence would work in another game. It is quite likely that the outcome depends on the position of the marked W stones on the outside.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B difficult fight
$$ +--------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . 4 3 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O 1 X O . W . .
$$ | . . 2 X . O . . . .
$$ | . . X O O . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . W O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +--------------------[/go]


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 Post subject: Re: paK0's goals and dreams
Post #276 Posted: Sat Dec 06, 2014 3:05 pm 
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Thanks, this is pretty much what I have been looking for, getting through as many standard sequences as possible.

Question for this one: Move 33. I should have prevented the connection at 40, but this move seems to happen quite a bit. In this case I was strong on both sides, but it also happens sometimes in loose sanrensei formations. Until now I've almost always answered with a hane, but that leaves behind a ton of aji, white can crosscut, just extend or maybe counter-hane. Would stretching have been better here? How about if black is not as strong? Any input appreciated.



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Post #277 Posted: Sat Dec 06, 2014 3:27 pm 
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First a comment from the last game, for move 63 white should have cut. Did you expect white to cut when you played s15? Anyway, he was kind enough to only block at n17, so gave you a golden opportunity to go back and fix the cut. Then everything would be safe.

In the latest game you are so strong that you can probably go bonkers and play p10 and still kill white, but for a sensible instinct stick with the hane.

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Post #278 Posted: Sat Dec 06, 2014 3:34 pm 
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I would hane to the other side since it would be harder to escape to the center.

For 36 I would play Q9 because S11 is a fine response to a cut at Q11. If your opponent played S11, then R12.

For 40 I would have played S6.

It would turn out a bit smaller I guess but it would still live in gote.

This sort of invasion is largely to punch you in the insecurity so you'll make mistakes.

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Post #279 Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 2:25 am 
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Yes, :b40: should block, particularly since T5 threatens the corner. Also, :b46: could be a tesuji at T8. And if you did not see that, at least consider :b44: at R8, ignoring the atari. If W captures one stone and you block, are you in any danger? The cut does not work for W.

But none of this really matters, since the sequence you played made enough thickness to win the game.

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Post #280 Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:34 am 
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:b8: Play the attachment at E-17. You know from experience that the usual play in the top right corner will end in gote for Black. Now is the chance to play E-17. Maybe the last chance.

:b14: Locally the connection at P-16 is better.

:b16: Too close to your strength.

:b18: Strengthens the White stone.

:b22: Very important. N-16, followed by N-17, followed by N-18 or O-18 depending on White’s play, followed by L-16 is perhaps the only way to play. Get something for your sacrifice. Cut off the White stone. Attack! While making territory, too. :)

:b34: Hane on your weaker side, not your stronger side.

:b36: The descent looks better. Try to keep White from making an eye and running out to the center. It is fine if he runs out without the eye. You can win by attacking the weak group.

:b46: Descend to the edge at T-08, as mitsun says. To prevent the snapback White must connect at T-06. Then you can connect with the hane at S-10. :D

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