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Do you think OGS should have its own subforum on Life in 19x19, like some other servers do?
Yes, I prefer a new OGS subforum 90%  90%  [ 27 ]
No, I prefer to leave it as it is now 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
I have no preference one way or another 10%  10%  [ 3 ]
Total votes : 30
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 Post subject: Should OGS have a subforum?
Post #1 Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 7:56 pm 
Dies in gote
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Alright, there seems to have been some controversy on this subject in the past. Somehow it seems to resurface every once in a while.

For a few years now, OGS has changed its scope from a correspondence server into a server with various other time settings (including live games and blitz). Since, it has also grown. For these reasons, and maybe others, some users have called for an OGS subforum to be established here on L19, independently from the Turn Based Servers subforum.

On the other hand, other users have argued that there's not enough traffic of OGS related topics here, that OGS already maintains its own forums or that not all major servers need to have a subforum on L19. I'm probably overlooking some of the arguments but, in a nutshell, they imply that there's not enough of a need to bother making any changes in the current status quo.

I know that there's a risk of flamewar, but I'd rather we settled this more reasonably, so I'll do as someone else suggested and create a poll.

Bear in mind that this poll is not binding for the admins to do anything whatsoever, and in only asking for your opinion.

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 Post subject: Re: Should OGS have a subforum?
Post #2 Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 12:42 pm 
Gosei
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Under current paradigm - i think: Yes.

OGS certainly seems in some people minds to be reaching the stature of IGS and KGS - i.e. major english-language Go server. So it should be treated same as those two, i.e. with its own sub-forum.

My perspective:
Not sure if OGS objectively 'deserves' it yet in terms of live games. But in general it might.
Talking about the IGS/KGS-equal status here.
A sub-forum it probably deserves.

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Post #3 Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:13 pm 
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Before I post any further comment, full disclosure: I did vote 'Yes'.

I'm a little bit unease as to how quickly this topic turns into a matter of deservedness. That seems to imply some sort of moral judgement of merit, which I think is inappropriate.

Life in 19x19 doesn't actually 'endorse' any server by giving them a subforum (as it shouldn't). I'd rather see it as whether or not it's in some way better for L19 itself to have such a subforum.

For example, I think by this point a lot of L19 users have at least an opinion about OGS. Some may like it, some may not, but I deem equally useful for any of them to be able to distinguish OGS related content in a more convenient way.

Other than that, I don't wish to antagonize with Bantari or anyone else on this subject.
___

Edit: I mean to say my opinion of OGS is completely irrelevant here. Please don't ask me for it.

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Post #4 Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:21 pm 
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I'm ok with it too. It's probably the strangest to want one, since they do keep their own forums, but it doesn't hurt anything.

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Post #5 Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:34 pm 
Gosei
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Leira wrote:
Before I post any further comment, full disclosure: I did vote 'Yes'.

Same here.

Leira wrote:
I'm a little bit unease as to how quickly this topic turns into a matter of deservedness. That seems to imply some sort of moral judgement of merit, which I think is inappropriate.

I agree fully. This is why I specified the context for the word 'deserve' - in terms of number live games with comparison to other major english-language servers like KGS and IGS. Another criterium I mentioned in another thread is the number of posts related to OGS.

Sorry if I did not make it clear. No moral judgement was intended. As a matter of fact, I don't see how a moral judgement can be passed on a Go server, it being just a 'thing'.

The underlying idea for what I said was that, while on one hand it is useful to have the ability to create sub-forums, on the other hand using this feature too generously might net be beneficial. In extreme cases: we can have one forum for all posts, or each post in its own separate forum. Since both cases are not good, we have to agree on something in the middle. And my point was: where do we finally land on the whole spectrum? In other words - is there enough traffic for OGS to have a dedicated forum, and how do we decide? I don't have a clue, so was just thinking out loud here - without really suggesting any practical solution or trying to pass any objective judgement. Just personal opinions.

Leira wrote:
Life in 19x19 doesn't actually 'endorse' any server by giving them a subforum (as it shouldn't). I'd rather see it as whether or not it's in some way better for L19 itself to have such a subforum.

For example, I think by this point a lot of L19 users have at least an opinion about OGS. Some may like it, some may not, but I deem equally useful for any of them to be able to distinguish OGS related content in a more convenient way.

Other than that, I don't wish to antagonize with Bantari or anyone else on this subject.

I absolutely do not see your post as antagonistic!!
Just the opposite - your opinion is valuable to me.
If I was not genuinely interested in what you and others have to say, I would not be positing here.

So please keep it coming and never worry about antagonizing me! :)

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 Post subject: Re: Should OGS have a subforum?
Post #6 Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 3:10 pm 
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You all make excellent points (and the vote has been nearly unanimous, haha). OGS has been the fastest-growing English-language server for a while now, it makes no sense to keep Kaya.gs's forum around for years after its demise, but to ignore the biggest new player. I agree that the existence of an active forum on OGS itself shouldn't really matter - they're mostly focused on very narrow tech-support type stuff, and it's a separate community we have going here anyway. Plus the fact that interface was recently open-sourced means we can hopefully expect discussions about UI forks/mods soon :)

So, it's up now! I've created the OGS subforum, and I'll remove the Kaya.gs one soon. (The threads themselves will still be available in the morgue, don't worry!). I'll move some of the recent threads from other boards that obviously would have been posted on the OGS subforum if one had existed at the time.

EDIT: I suppose I should also change the Turn-Based Server forum's description to not include OGS anymore... so, does that leave only DGS, or are there any other commonly-used turn-based servers that might get discussed here? Should this maybe become the DGS forum instead?

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 Post subject: Re: Should OGS have a subforum?
Post #7 Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 4:08 pm 
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In terms of size, right now, DGS does dominate the correspondence-exclusive scene, hands down.

Off the top of my head, I can only think of few others, but they are not only about Go:
  • Little Golem
  • It's your turn
  • No Strive (this one is Go exclusive)

I may have seen a thread or two about Little Golem. The rest I don't know.

Anyway, thanks for your expedience, apetresc.

EDIT: Probably this topic should also belong to this subforum, I think it's the only one you missed.

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Post #8 Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 4:59 pm 
Gosei
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Quoting from that other thread since it’s going to be locked soon …

Bantari wrote:
I am not really an OGS user, so my opinion probably does not count as much as yours,
TBH, I’d rather see us both as L19 users here, and ones who may have similar or different preferences about where to play, so I think all our opinions should have the same value.


Quote:
but still - I disagree. I think we should try to consolidate english-language discussion rather then splinter it. I honestly wish there was no OGS forum and all the discussion would take place here instead of there. Would also be a much stronger argument for creating an OGS sub-forum on L19.
TBH, when the OGS forum first opened, I was quite shocked and also feared an increased splintering of “our forces”, but soon I realized that it was really useful for the OGS community.

Not only do the user names from the Go server transport to the forum, which makes it easier to know who is who (I for example used to have different nicks for servers and forums [long explanation omitted], OGS is the only exception), but as others have already said, it also is mainly a support forum for OGS users, the other threads are (IMNVHO) just for some added entertainment. But of course there also are lots of teaching and review request (etc.) threads there, naturally, and it is easier for OGS users to interconnect that way.

Also, I was happy to see that the L19 community is not going to be hurt by the existence of the OGS forum, which was one of my largest concerns. Apparently the Go community allows for some polyamory :-)


Quote:
I get your point about bigger chance of devs and admins reading the OGS forum, but... I see no reason the devs and admins cannot as easily follow a sub-forum here as they do the OGS forum. Or does the OGS forum offer important features that L19 does not have? In any case - having a separate OGS forum is a choice, not a necessity. And a bad and harmful choice, I think.
I have adressed a few points above already.

For me, who uses both forums, the most important point is a beautiful and modern forum software (discourse) … heck, I can even paste images from the clipboard (e.g. screenshots) in posts and comments … very useful for support posts (but there are many other very practical features as you’ll see once you’ve joined and checked it out.)

In hindsight, to me, it seems to have been a good choice. And see, even I am still here :lol:


Quote:
As for concrete and practical reasons for the above, there are many. It would lessen the need for site-jumping for lazy people like me. As it is, I look at L19, reddit, rgg, and some more stuff, just for Go talk. I would much rather it was all neatly in one place, and I really dislike aggregators.
Yes, I also sometimes abhor the multitude of places where I get or spread Go information (I’m also in r/baduk & rgg, and in a Go community on Google+, and a Facebook group with ~7,500 members, and the more specialized computer-go mailing list, and the German forum …). So, I’d love it if one day all will be united under the OGS roof some day :mrgreen: <jk>

Quote:

Another reason might be advertising. Posting about OGS in OGS forum does not give much exposure - its like preaching to the choir. Having threads about it where non-OGS people can easily read is would be nice. Just imagine how much good it would look for the OGS if people could (more) easily see threads like asking devs/admins for help and seeing this help being offered in timely and polite fashion! I bet this would be a drawing point. Especially compared to the IGS/KGS response (or lack thereof.)
Well, the problem is as you stated before: too many places … imagine how much work it would be (and how many more support folks were needed!) if all these places would have to be watched … so the OGS devs and mods can have it all in one place.

I have noticed, though, that questions are being answered here, in the FB group (there I also sometimes answer questions), and on r/baduk. Which is not a necessity, but a choice, and what a nice one ;-)

Quote:
[..] its an opportunity for a new customer. Why waste it?
Well, I for one view the users on OGS rather as … users, Go players, community members … not “customers”. And take note that I am also a supporting member, but I don’t see myself as a customer either, but rather as a supporting user (even though I do some forum moderation there, which I see as just another form of supporting OGS).


<edit>
BTW I’m also a supporter of L19—would you then call me a customer because of this fact? ;-)
</edit>

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Post #9 Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 6:19 pm 
Gosei
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As I said, not being an OGS *user*, and not really liking OGS very much in general, I concede that my opinion on this subject probably matters less that yours. Still, my opinion remains the same - I would rather not have to hop around different forums too much, and I still see no reason why it cannot be all handled within one specific forum, L19 or whatever.

To be honest, I am not sure why I take this position... usually I agree with you, having choices is better. I think it is personal - I don't have time to read most other Go sources, and having it consolidated would be more convenient for me. Like the FB you mention - I never ever go there and read it. I read reddit and rgg sometime, but that's it. And I wish all the interesting stuff would make it here. So maybe it is just personal preference.

Bonobo wrote:
In hindsight, to me, it seems to have been a good choice. And see, even I am still here :lol:

Sarcasm, right?... You are pretty much everywhere, all the time.
But some of us don't have the bandwidth.

Bonobo wrote:
I for one view the users on OGS rather as … users, Go players, community members … not “customers”. And take note that I am also a supporting member, but I don’t see myself as a customer either, but rather as a supporting user (even though I do some forum moderation there, which I see as just another form of supporting OGS).

<edit>
BTW I’m also a supporter of L19—would you then call me a customer because of this fact? ;-)
</edit>

Really? This is what you want to make an argument of?
You're one weird customer. Heh...

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Post #10 Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 8:35 pm 
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This change was overdue. Thank you.

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