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 Post subject: Absolutely Vital Points in Fuseki that Amateurs Don`t Know
Post #1 Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 7:01 pm 
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Title: アマの知らない布石・絶対の急所 (Absolutely Vital Points in Fuseki that Amateurs Don`t Know)
Author: 石田芳夫 (Ishida Yoshio)
Publisher: 毎日コミュニケーションズ (MyCom), 2011
Amazon: http://www.amazon.co.jp/%E3%83%9E%E3%82 ... 869&sr=8-2

This is not a first-stage book about how to play fuseki. You won`t find the usual advice about corners-sides-centre and the like. Instead, Ishida jumps straight into his agenda, which concerns the transition from opening into middlegame. After all, as Mimura Tomoyasu points out in another book, anybody can play the first few moves just like a pro, but the problem is knowing what to do after that! I believe Ishida`s book provides some useful instruction on how to make some of the more difficult decisions that arise in the later fuseki.

There are four sections, each following the pattern of explanation followed by problems.

Chapter 1: 「かかり方」にも意味がある (The choice of approach moves also has meaning)
Chapter 2: 「地の接点」が勝負を決める (The meeting point of territories can decide victory and defeat)
Chapter 3: 「模様の碁の急所」(Vital points of moyo go)
Chapter 4: 一番大きいのは「根拠の手」(The biggest move concerns a base)

Chapter 1 was very interesting for me, because it explains the characteristics of four different ways to approach a 3-4 point, namely the low one-space approach, the high one-space approach, the low two-space approach and the high two-space approach. Each method has its strengths and weaknesses, and which to choose will depend on the whole-board situation. For example, according to Ishida the virtues of the high one-space approach are that it increases influence, provides some relief against a pincer, is flexible and is good for whole-board balance; its downside is that it is a bit "amai", which means a touch generous from the territorial viewpoint. The examples illustrate different situations in which the right or wrong choice of approach move can lead to favourable or unfavourable consequences.

Chapter 2 shows how big it to join territories together, or to play in a mutually big place.

Chapter 3 concerns moyo play, and provides two main principles: "Don`t miss the meeting point of two moyo" and "When you cannot win by surrounding territory, erase!".

What I found particularly instructive was the way Ishida`s problems do not always have an obvious answer. In many books, it`s easy to spot the answer without thinking, simply by looking at the chapter title. That approach won`t work here. You have to read. For instance, you might think you are playing at 天王山 (tenouzan), but really be missing the chance to rip the opponent`s moyo to shreds, or be leaving yourself open to a similar attack.

Ishida describes the theme of Chapters 2 and 3 as "vital points" (急所), but in Chapter 4 he says that more important still, what may be called "urgent points" (急場), are moves which make or break a base. Again, the answers to the problems are not always obvious. What may appear to be a weak group in need of a base might turn out to have plentiful resources, while a seemingly stable group turns out to be quite vulnerable.

In short, you get some useful general principles to remember when trying to find a good late-fuseki move. Through the problems you are shown a range of tactical techniques applicable to commonly occurring shapes, and you are made to realise the importance of reading instead of simply attempting to follow principles blindly.

Of the MyCom books, I think this one might not be so useful to non-readers of Japanese. In the failure diagrams, for instance, the "fail" move is not always bad; indeed, it can often be a perfectly good move if the opponent also misses the vital point, or can simply be a good move that is just not quite as good as the solution.

Sample Problem:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Black to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . b . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



I`m not telling you from which chapter this problem comes. Before you look at the solution, ask yourself whether the crucial issue is to a) stablise a group b) play the meeting point of two moyos c) play the meeting point of Black`s territorial prospects.

SOLUTION

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Ishida, p. 211
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black stabilises the three stones, and is now able to fight strongly over the board.


ONE FAILURE

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Failure line
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . 1 . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It looks like the meeting point of two moyo, and it is a very good point (好点), but the trouble is that White can still put strong pressure on Black`s three stones on the left, as shown in the following diagram:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Failure continuation
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 4 . O . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . 3 . 1 . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . 2 . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 8 X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . 7 . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Failure continuation 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 O . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black has expanded his moyo, but White has gained points, and Black`s weak group cannot be called stable yet.


My rating: B+ (interesting and thought-provoking)
Summary: contains valuable advice on late-fuseki play, and highlights the importance of reading carefully, and also presents quite a lot of technique en passant. However, understanding the solutions and failures requires Japanese ability, as the reasoning is often not obvious.

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 Post subject: Re: Absolutely Vital Points in Fuseki that Amateurs Don`t Kn
Post #2 Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:07 am 
Judan

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Tami wrote:
the virtues of the high one-space approach are that it increases influence, provides some relief against a pincer, is flexible and is good for whole-board balance; its downside is that it is a bit "amai", which means a touch generous from the territorial viewpoint.


For comparison, Joseki 1 Fundamentals, p. 85, lists these reasons for a high and near [i.e., 1-space] approach move to some [3-3, 3-4, 3-5, 4-4] first corner stone:
"- try to establish influence towards the center or along the side,
- make an answer more likely [than with farther approach moves] or
- moderately restrict opposing potential for territory"

Ishida and I agree on
- increasing influence
- only moderate restriction of territory

I mention what Ishida does not mention:
- make an answer more likely

Ishida mentions what I do not mention:
1) provides some relief against a pincer
2) is flexible
3) is good for whole-board balance

1) I agree; a high instead of a low move provides some relief against a pincer. This is expressed somewhere else in my joseki series. It is only "some" relief and not "much relief" in comparison to to a farther approach move.

2) It is less flexible than a farther approach move, more flexible for running away to the center, less flexible than a low and near approach move for seeking local eyespace. Therefore, just saying "flexible" is misleading.

3) Which whole-board balance? That of influence: ok. That of territory: no. More for whole board influence balance than the low and near approach move: yes. Less for whole board influence balance than farther high approach moves: yes. Therefore, just saying good for whole-board balance is misleading.

I assume that the book would be more detailed than you have indicated so far and would make distinctions in comparison to low or farther approach moves roughly along the points I mention in (2) or (3)?

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 Post subject: Re: Absolutely Vital Points in Fuseki that Amateurs Don`t Kn
Post #3 Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:18 am 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
Ishida mentions...

I mention what Ishida does not mention...


It seems that taking second hand information for first hand information is going out on a limb a bit. Particularly when you draw your conclusions based on incomplete information.

For example, you write:
Quote:
Ishida mentions what I do not mention:
1) provides some relief against a pincer
2) is flexible
3) is good for whole-board balance

1) I agree; a high instead of a low move provides some relief against a pincer. This is expressed somewhere else in my joseki series. It is only "some" relief and not "much relief" in comparison to to a farther approach move.

2) It is less flexible than a farther approach move, more flexible for running away to the center, less flexible than a low and near approach move for seeking local eyespace. Therefore, just saying "flexible" is misleading.

3) Which whole-board balance? That of influence: ok. That of territory: no. More for whole board influence balance than the low and near approach move: yes. Less for whole board influence balance than farther high approach moves: yes. Therefore, just saying good for whole-board balance is misleading.


To imply that Ishida is misleading by "just saying "flexible" is misleading on your part if your only information as to what Ishida actually said is a brief comment in a forum post. Same goes for point 3.

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 Post subject: Re: Absolutely Vital Points in Fuseki that Amateurs Don`t Kn
Post #4 Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:30 am 
Judan

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That's why I am asking whether, as I suppose, Ishida goes into more details WRT to reasons for approach moves than the review mentions.

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 Post subject: Re: Absolutely Vital Points in Fuseki that Amateurs Don`t Kn
Post #5 Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:54 am 
Oza

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Quote:
Ishida and I agree on
- increasing influence
- only moderate restriction of territory

I mention what Ishida does not mention:
- make an answer more likely


I don't accept this. If you attack someone you can reasonably assume he will defend, i.e. an answer is likely. The Japanese word kakari 掛り impliess 'attack' not 'approach'. To any of Ishida's Japanese readers, therefore, it is obvious that defence is an option.

It is unfortunate that kakari got stuck with the 'approach' idea from the early days, but that is just one of about 20 different usages. The go usage is like its use in あの人にかかったら駄目だ - 'you will be no match if you fight him'. The idea is 'laying hands on', i.e. getting a 手掛り.


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 Post subject: Re: Absolutely Vital Points in Fuseki that Amateurs Don`t Kn
Post #6 Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:58 am 
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Yes, I agree with daal. I provided a very brief snippet for an example, because it would neither be practical nor legal for me to translate the entire book and post it here. Of course, Ishida goes into more detail, both in his explanations and his examples.

As it happens, Ishida asserts that the low two-space approach is mainly used to provide relief from a pincer. Among other supporting examples, he gives White`s use of it against the Kobayashi style (p.30-2), showing how other methods might lead to a difficult result.

Concerning balance and the high two-space approach, the phrase Ishida uses is "二間高ガカリは、やや特殊なカカリで、一間高ガカリと大ゲイマガカリをミックスしたようなものです。全局のバランスを考えながら、位を取りつつ軽く早足に打つときに有効です。" I would translate it as "the two-space approach, being somewhat special, is like a mix of the one-space high approach and the two-space low approach. While thinking about the whole board, it is effective at times for developing lightly and quickly while taking up position." From this, I assume he means the balance of influence. Sadly, he does not go into much more detail about this move, offering it only as an alternative to the two-space low approach to the Kobayashi style.

I`m sure there is plenty in Robert`s books that Ishida does not cover, and probably vice versa. The book has yet to be written that contains everything you need to know. Still, there is a lot to recommend in the Absolutely Vital Points in Fuseki that Amateurs Don`t Know.

And if anybody has anything constructive to say about my attempts at translation, I welcome it with open arms!

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 Post subject: Re: Absolutely Vital Points in Fuseki that Amateurs Don`t Kn
Post #7 Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:13 am 
Oza

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Quote:
While thinking about the whole board, it is effective at times for developing lightly and quickly while taking up position


Balance got lost somewhere in the typing (therefore amend to sth like: While thinking about the balance of the game overall...)

and 位 is from shogi and neary always refers to a high or (more accurately) dominant position (though it is possible to use phrases such as 位が低い when you are, say, pressed down on the third line).

The shogi usage (位取り or 位を取る) refers to getting a pawn, or occasionally a rook, on the dominating 5th (central) rank. One interesting difference between chess and shogi is that in chess the centre four squares tend to form the focus of early manoeuvres, but in shogi it is the entire 5th rank.


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 Post subject: Re: Absolutely Vital Points in Fuseki that Amateurs Don`t Kn
Post #8 Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:48 am 
Judan

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Tami wrote:
for an example


Ah! (From your "the virtues of the high one-space approach are", I thought it would be Ishida's general advice for all high one-space approaches to the 3-4.)

Quote:
I`m sure there is plenty in Robert`s books that Ishida does not cover, and probably vice versa. The book has yet to be written that contains everything you need to know.


It would be nice to have everything about (at least the possible major) reasons for choosing particular approach moves. (Both books contain also other topics, but this has not been my point of discussion.) Due to the apparent relation of both books WRT to the topic of corner approach moves (and of the joseki chapter of Fundamental Principles), we have a chance to find out.

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 Post subject: Re: Absolutely Vital Points in Fuseki that Amateurs Don`t Kn
Post #9 Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:57 am 
Judan

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John Fairbairn wrote:
Quote:
Ishida and I agree on
- increasing influence
- only moderate restriction of territory

I mention what Ishida does not mention:
- make an answer more likely


I don't accept this.


Does this mean that you disagree with Ishida and me on the first two points?

Quote:
If you attack someone you can reasonably assume he will defend, i.e. an answer is likely. The Japanese word kakari 掛り impliess 'attack' not 'approach'. To any of Ishida's Japanese readers, therefore, it is obvious that defence is an option.


Of course, defense is an option. Therefore I write "make an answer more likely", which describes an option and does not describe a duty. So why would you not accept "make an answer more likely"? It seems that we agree. Your translation of kakari does not contradict either of my three points cited above. So why "don't you accept"?

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Post #10 Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:54 pm 
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Tami, what a great review. You make me want to learn Japanese.


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Post #11 Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 2:31 pm 
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xed_over wrote:
Tami, what a great review. You make me want to learn Japanese.

Makes me want to read more Japanese Go stuff translated by Tami :-D

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Post #12 Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:33 pm 
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Bonobo wrote:
xed_over wrote:
Tami, what a great review. You make me want to learn Japanese.

Makes me want to read more Japanese Go stuff translated by Tami :-D


Of course, I`m flattered by this, but for now I must remain a student and leave the translations to the experts. As you can see from John`s comments, there are a lot of important things that I have yet to learn.

However, I would like to go further with translation, even if in only a small way, and for the time being I shall continue to share what I can with you.

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Post #13 Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:49 am 
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Just for the record: I hate these titles like "XY that amateurs don't know" when the book gives cutting-edge insights like: "the choice of approach matters", "focal points are big" or "play urgent moves". I mean, really? My impression always was, that most amateurs at a certain level know about this in theory, even if they far too often fail to apply it for varied reasons.


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Post #14 Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 7:40 am 
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tapir wrote:
Just for the record: I hate these titles like "XY that amateurs don't know" when the book gives cutting-edge insights like: "the choice of approach matters", "focal points are big" or "play urgent moves". I mean, really? My impression always was, that most amateurs at a certain level know about this in theory, even if they far too often fail to apply it for varied reasons.


It's a fair criticism, but perhaps the reason is because calling your book "Important Ideas in Fuseki that Many Amateurs Kind of Know but Often Forget or Mishandle" is not so appealing. Besides which, this amateur didn`t know many of the things in Ishida`s book!

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