What has been written here about the new server outlines a very ambitious project.
And the details and possibilities look awesome... I will be the first to sign up if you guys are successful.
I think it is correct that the web-based server has many advantages over local client-based server, and its good to see people thinking about that.

On the other hand, it seems to me a huge undertaking to run a Go server. And I mean 'RUN', not just build. Building it and programming it and implementing it - this is the FUN part for any programmer and Go player. But the real work starts after that... the day-to-day duties a server master has to fulfill. Setting policies, making decisions, maintaining, and taking crap from all sides. And doing it day after day after day... It scares the heck out of me even to think about that.

Not many people are able to do that, even if there are a lot of us skilled enough to actually build such server. Will the owners of Kaya.gs be able to? After all, a viable go server is only viable if it is allowed to grow over a long period of time, especially if it has to compete against existing successful services. So it will have to, most likely, run with minimal membership for quite a while - see the other web-based servers. Years, maybe. Until something happens and the 'critical mass' of users will be reached.

And another thing - building a server is a good thing, but there has to be a business model behind. So, how is the new server to be financed? Membership dues, ads, sponsors? Or will it rely on volunteers all the way?

I dunno... this is what I think when I read this thread.

However, what I absolutely DO NOT agree with is the people saying 'well, we have KGS why even try to do anything different or better?' Very narrow horizons, I think.

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- Bantari
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WARNING: This post might contain Opinions!!

Sorry i meant desktop client for thunderbird. Thunder is made on C++ which is certainly something we wont use for Kaya.gs.

Im surprised about wbaduk if its not made with Java. The homepage does ask for Java web-start to run the client.


Regards.

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Founder of Kaya.gs

Doesn't sound very attractive to me:
* Bad rating system (WHR 4tw)
* Bad escaper policy
* No way to notify the user of chat messages or that it is his move to play apart from audio
* No context menus
* Can't autosave games and chatlogs to my harddisk

I'd strongly prefer an open source client to a pure website. One could work around that with a custom program that embeds a browser control and that offers a better GUI.

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Sanity is for the weak.

One thing I'd like to see is user created tournaments. I'm not sure if you can do that on any existing Go servers, but it would certainly be a cool feature. And sure, you can set up informal tournaments and whatnot, but imagine if there was a button for creating tournaments?

Example:

-Click Create Tournament
-Decide rule set/time
-Decide tournament format-
-Minimum number of players/maximum number of players
-Then post it

So it'd be kind of like creating a game on KGS, except it would create a tournament branch. And I suppose there should also be a way to check winners and losers.

But that's for tournament nuts like me who can't go out and play in them in real life.

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Slava Ukraini!

Indeed, the rating system of Wbaduk (and Tygem which is very similar) is broken in the kyu area. Prone to sandbaggers. KGS' ranking system is actually good except for that the ranking changes as the ranking of previous opponents change.



Why do you think this escaper policy is bad? Which one would you think is better? Everybody here is complaining about the escaper policy of KGS, but I haven't seen anybody complaining about the others' escaper systems.

This is going to be available. Im actually talking to a developer that wants to make a website to organize tournaments: kaya.gs would simply utilize that website and achieve the desired functionality.

This is what kaya.gs is all about, that people want to do new things and that they can be integrated into the server.





There is no point in discussing if you like Kaya.gs because it doesnt exist yet. ELO is by far the most tested rating system out there, hardly to say a bad rating system. EGF ratings use point based system.

I dont see why you say that there is no way to to notify the user, in the dev server of Kaya.gs we have played games with sound and visual notification. Also we have context menus. And also we can autosave games on the server. And chat logs arent saved by KGS as far as i know: but wait, we can save them. We might not want to, as opposed to KGS that has right to every single private message you send.



It is no less than ambitious. We are truly building the next generation Go server and it deserves to go as high as we can take it. To your concerns about running the server, i can only answer you that we have the blind-sighted entrepreneur confidence that we can take anything that shows up .

We are building a serious and professional server. There is a business model but its not sensible to go public with it now as its not going to be implemented in quite a while.
Most of your concerns are very real, but i cant really discuss them so openly at this stage of the project , as they can change drastically.

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Founder of Kaya.gs

Sign me up, then!

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Slava Ukraini!

Not sure whether the EGF system is the best system. I've heard rumors that the Glicko rating system is used for chess ratings, which is an improvement over ELO. Or better: use Glicko-2.

This is the first I've heard of Glicko. Its "rating volatility" parameter sounds interesting, and essentially similar to the AGA's "sigma."

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AGA membership customer service rep -- database@usgo.org
AGA Members Area: https://usgo.org/members

It's just ELO with the RD parameter. It's used on FICS for example, but they don't call it Glicko. It makes sense, but you also get "heavy" accounts as on KGS of course. This should be balanced so that it never becomes sensible to create a new account, just so the rating system can catch up to your latest improvement...

I will check-out Glicko, had never heard of it. Thanks

We have made updates to the site with more information. Visit http://kaya.gs to check out it. I have included some of the features that the server will include.

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Founder of Kaya.gs

There's also Glicko-2. You can read about both of them here: http://www.glicko.net/glicko.html

Also, you might be interested in Jeff Sonas's work on ratings:
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=562

the ASR is going to do some events with gabriel to help him out raising money

check out here http://www.advancedstudyroom.com/ASR/?p=1073 for the first event

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admin of the ASR league and KGS admin

Good luck.

Imho it is very difficult to establish a new go server nowadays. You will need the right player base much more urgently than the best interface, so I would invest more in translating services than programming. Even a server like OGS suffers from lack of players, 1k upwards the population is very small and this is a turn based server that can cope with a small population much better. I really wonder whether it is all the fancy features that draw people to e.g. WBaduk or the possibility to find an even opponent within seconds. To me it is clearly the second.

Best Tapir

Wouldn't it be easier to simply implement the web-app spectator modes with an existing go server?

It seems like a lot of effort to build a new car to show off your stereo system...

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Tactics yes, Tact no...

Really? KGS reacts to community complaints about it's escaper system? I guess you could call Mef's "I've heard it all before so I don't think it's worth responding (my paraphrase)," a reaction, but just because we don't know if and how asian servers have responded to criticism and suggestions (do we know?) is no reason to assume that they don't or haven't. Indeed, whether or not the escaper system on asian servers is a subject for discussion in the world beyond L19 is hard to discern.

What we do know however, is that we, the L19 community, complain all the time here and mostly to each other about KGS's escaper policy, and we don't do the same about the escaper policies on other servers. Maybe this is because for some unfathomable reason we consider it more likely that complaints about KGS might bring about a change, but probably it's just that we (at least some of us) see more things about the escaper system to complain about.

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Patience, grasshopper.

Its actually impossible to do that.And much much worse.




Of course the user base is the most important thing. And you get a user-base with a better server. Im guessing you were not around in the IGS days when KGS just showed up. People were saying "its impossible to build a new one, in igs you get a game in 1 minute, in kgs... ".

What i can confidently say is that the difference between KGS and KAYA.gs is bigger than the difference between IGS and KGS. And we are not looking to be "as big as kgs" we are building a server better than Tygem. Our goal is to be #1.

This is something new and powerful and different. As go players we wont be playing in KGS or Tygem in 2020. There has to be a next step and this is it. A server where people can contribute to making it bigger and better.

So as far as the server revolution, let me tell you that i was there and stood for KGS when it was new. It was about doing one of two things: you either stick with what you have, or ride the wave of the next generation.

Kaya.gs is giving an opportunity no other server ever gave: for you to get involved and be acknowledged for it. You can support us and be from the first people that wanted to see how the future was going to be. Its something to be proud to make a 'bet' for something that will give value to go players all around the world.

So far all the people that have made a pledge for us are really looking forward on how Kaya.gs is going to be and what its going to bring to the community.

If you still dont see some of the things Kaya.gs will be able to solve, visit the Feature section in the website. http://kaya.gs.

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Founder of Kaya.gs

Well, there is something like path dependency = often the worse design wins just by being available earlier. You will need language support for the more relevant go populations. Right from the beginning, if your plans are to be number 1.

Another question that pops up when I read about free video streams for everyone.

What is the business plan? How do you plan to finance labour and other expenses after the initial investment? Tygem and WBaduk and IGS are business enterprises afaik, people pay to play there. If there is a relevant income stream, who will own the server, when it is financed now with community venture capital?

There is a business plan, but im not going to go public with it now as it can change a lot over the course of the first few months. It will be free to play, that's certain.

Of course, my partner and i are owners of the server. If you want to invest to get ownership you can talk to me in private,we are currently dealing with investors.

This crowdfunding opportunity is limited. In less than 60 days it will be closed off and we wont hand out founder accounts , the documentary on how we are building it, the first games games of the server will have passed by then. This support helps us build a better demo to show to future investors and to get a good head-start on its development.

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Founder of Kaya.gs

There is the fact that the people who do like the system don't complain.