It is currently Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:12 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 309 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 12, 13, 14, 15, 16  Next
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Re: A new server is being developed: Kaya.gs
Post #281 Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 6:11 pm 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 458
Location: Carlisle, England
Liked others: 181
Was liked: 280
KGS: 1k
Universal go server handle: Callisto
Online playing schedule: When I can
In a way, people already have voted on it. In online discussions, almost everybody calls it Kaya, not Kaya.gs. That might prompt Gabriel and Patricio to make it official, but it's up to them. Even if it remains Kaya.gs officially, everybody will know what you're referring to when you say Kaya outside the topic of goban materials, so perhaps it's not an urgent matter.

_________________
Learn the "tea-stealing" tesuji! Cho Chikun demonstrates at 27:44 here
.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: A new server is being developed: Kaya.gs
Post #282 Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 7:56 pm 
Lives with ko

Posts: 294
Liked others: 25
Was liked: 78
Rank: 6d
KGS: Dexmorgan
Wbaduk: c0nanbatt
daal wrote:
BTW, *all* of the people who commented on your poll were in favor of using the name kaya instead of kaya.gs.


The feedback service we use is a system based on votes : you can only give votes, not take them away. So anyone there would only be supporting the idea. As i said, 4/195 people that voted on the site, and they happened i think around the time i redirected users to that.

daal wrote:
I never read that there was a poll, and I imagine that if you had posted one here, where there is a broader community instead of buried in the feedback section of your site, you might have gotten a good deal more response.


Its not buried, it had the same procedure as any other feature there, and even more as i referenced it in places where this topic was mentioned. Maybe you are considering that i should have started a campaign inciting people to vote, but that would be biased in one way or another.

For me the topic is quite settled because no new arguments came into the mix. I said before, our #1 priority are users, and i haven't heard any argument in this topic that had them in mind.
As i mentioned countless time in this issue, dropping the gs from the name means people will not find the site. Making it .com means we have to add things to the name, like kgs did.

Do we believe being named Kaya.gs makes the site easier to find for users? Yes.
Has the name confusion been happening? To my knowledge only one person ever i saw referenced Kaya as KGS, and i publicly called him on it.(it was on a blog)
Do we believe it affects KGS negatively in any way that some users could call Kaya.gs KGS? No.

I cant imagine what is the crisis scenario that you feel is so important to avoid. Some users googling kgs and seeing Kaya.gs in the list of sites?

1- Try googling Kgs. Kaya is not at least in the first 10 pages.
2- Try googling kaya. Right now even logged in, kaya.gs is barely creeped in the bottom of the first page. Without session, which means without googles profiled search, we are not at least in the first 5 pages.
3- Try googling kaya.gs . Undoubted first hit.

Just take a step back and look at this from our position.
What would any other server do if 2% of the users proposed it changed its name?

_________________
Founder of Kaya.gs

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: A new server is being developed: Kaya.gs
Post #283 Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 9:24 pm 
Beginner

Posts: 1
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 2
Rank: KGS 2k
I lurk on L19 every now and again, and this thread finally spurred me to make an account and point out a few things. I don't intend to give any new information here, merely put some things together that may point out the obvious for many, and put together a larger puzzle for some. As he is the main factor here, I am afraid that sir Benmergui may be the blunt of much of this post. As I don't know him, I have little reason for animosity against him, but perhaps you should also view this as a learning experience on professionalism as you venture into the business world. It may also be worth stating that I do speak with illluck via Internet chatting on a semi-regular basis.

This post will not be regarding in any way the functionality or stability, or even credibility of the Kaya server project. It will only be regarding this recent development that has caused a bit of commotion.

illluck posted a concern he had with Kaya in a somewhat comical manner. He perhaps posted it to the wrong place, being publicly instead of privately, but it was addressing an issue of which all information was public, so it seems there is little cause to keep it off of the main development thread. Nonetheless, it was posted. This was met with a prompt and professional reply by Benmergui, as well as a fix to the alleged concerns. This was a correct course of action.

However, that was not where the problem was. Benmergui proceeded to try to mock illluck for pointing out the problem in a rather public chat-room, and sent him a rather rude and angry message to belittle him, with an ounce of useful advice. This is not anywhere near professionalism. The PM especially illustrates a problem with an inflated ego, and was very childish. Obviously Benmergui did this because he thought it would be private, which only escalates illluck's reasons to publicly post it. You can't act professional in public forums and attack people giving suggestions in private. That will not do.

The posts that followed were largely in illluck's favour, if this is truly to be viewed as an argument between Benmergui and him, which shouldn't be the case to begin with. What happened next is perhaps the most disappointing. Benmergui makes a post that starts off well, addressing the issues and restoring confidence in his "founders" or donors, whatever you prefer to refer to them as. Indeed, it was pointed out that illluck's concern was not an issue in the first place! I am in awe and cannot fathom why it was an unpleasant surprise that illluck posted, then, as obviously this information was never intended to be kept private. Watch your word choice, Benmergui, if that is not truly what you meant from your first reply.

Then it degenerates:

Quote:
I am sorry that you perceive something so negative about that private message i sent to Illuck. It might be lost in translation ,but even re-reading it after a good night sleep, the point still stands. He made an aggressive post, that showed me he had intentions of impersonating other users, which is why i promptly (in the next 2 hours) i put up the passwords, which were already implemented well from before, but i needed to be able to send them to as most founders that i could.

Regarding the chat in the server, it is taken quite out of context, as several founders know i even jokingly call dp such when something has to be done on the design/board functionality.


I find this quite laughable. It is completely undeniable that Benmergui's posts were fuelled by a temporary rage and the fear that a small oversight may have lost him some credibility. The "intentions of impersonating other users" was obviously not ill-founded, as it was to test to see if his original concern was valid. Had he intended to use this method, why on earth would he have posted his concern in the first place? Highly illogical. This also contradicts what Benmergui posted above, which clearly stated that there could be no possible harm in such actions, and it was a well-known fact among the donors. I also find it highly improbable that the chat quotation was out of context, since in any context one should not be attacking someone who merely raises a red flag of concern. Never publicly attack anyone related to your own business in any way. It never helps with image and will not build relationships with your client base. This is quite simple business sense. This is not even an issue with wording, it is an issue with attitude towards potential business.

Quote:
Maybe i perceive a tone of agressiveness from this posts that other users don't, but they are certainly meant for that.
I did learn a lesson from this, and that holding this project raises my profile and some people can be tempted into damaging my image or worse, the projects image. I promess i will make an effort to keep such opportunities to the minimum.


And this brings me to my main problem. This is a classic attempt to shift blame and public opinion. What Benmergui has done here is not amicable by any standard. By now it must be apparent that a mistake, and possibly a few, have been made. Instead of addressing that a mistake was made, and apologizing or at least giving an explanation for actions taken, this serves as a method of attention diversion. Benmergui has now completely villainized illluck, as well as giving himself a little ego boost. This is, paired with the two preceding paragraphs, a final attempt to win back any lost souls who saw eye to eye with illluck, for reasons legitimate or misguided. This is childish and unprofessional to the highest degree. It is very close to bully tactics, and should be a warning sign to all reading it. It is certainly not a good insight into the ego and mentality of the author. It is precisely this that spurred me to create this monolith of text.

Other than some further contradictions in Benmergui's following post, I feel this is where most of this issue ends. I would like to clearly state that this is not an argument of any kind, nor is it to directly incur some form of inflammation. This is analysis, observation, and fact. I do not feel that the majority of this post can be disputed in any way, as it is made up of simple analysis on the provided information. Feel free to read or ignore at your leisure, but these would be some of my concerns, and includes several lessons that perhaps Benmergui, illluck and others must learn if they want to build a successful, healthy environment in their endeavours.

Best of fortune to all of you as you create this new server.

---Boredom.


This post by Boredom was liked by 2 people: daal, mw42
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: A new server is being developed: Kaya.gs
Post #284 Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 10:43 pm 
Tengen
User avatar

Posts: 4908
Location: Banbeck Vale
Liked others: 785
Was liked: 1159
Rank: 1D AGA
GD Posts: 1512
Kaya handle: Test
[Admin]

To all who have posted in the last two pages:

1) The overall tone of the discussion is getting a bit unpleasant. Please be nice.
2) If a dispute exists elsewhere, please don't drag it into L19. We have enough home-grown disputes.
3) If you know about a security breach in someone else's site, please don't reveal it to the world on L19.
( FWIW, It is probably not a good idea to make it public anywhere, but that's not my concern right now. )

Thanks,
Joaz

[/admin]


This post by Joaz Banbeck was liked by 6 people: balistic, Chew Terr, Kaya.gs, Loons, Mr. Mormon, RBerenguel
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: A new server is being developed: Kaya.gs
Post #285 Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 3:26 am 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1449
Liked others: 1562
Was liked: 140
Rank: KGS 6k
GD Posts: 892
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
( FWIW, It is probably not a good idea to make it public anywhere, but that's not my concern right now. )[size=150]

This is debatable. While I understand your post, it is not a good idea to keep quiet about possible security problems all the time. I agree that contacting people privately first is usually the best idea, but security through obscurity should be fought against. I'll leave it at that, the matter can be (and has been) discussed elsewhere.

_________________
a1h1 [1d]: You just need to curse the gods and defend.
Good Go = Shape.
Associação Portuguesa de Go

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: A new server is being developed: Kaya.gs
Post #286 Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 3:36 am 
Lives with ko
User avatar

Posts: 209
Location: Blekinge, Sweden
Liked others: 2
Was liked: 38
Rank: Swedish 3 kyu
My 2 cents regarding the last couple of days' discussion about passwords:

First of all, I don't consider the situation to have been much of a security issue.
But,
It's a matter of professionalism and credibility, it just doesn't seem very trustworthy to have a non-changable password that equals the username. Most or all of the funders knew there was close to nothing for non-funders to gain by hijacking a funder account, but non-funders didn't!
And, it's a matter of respect for the funders: If they should have the privilege of having sole access to the alpha, it should not have been so easy for non-funders to get access.
At least the information about passwords should not have been made public on the blog; for instance a note to the funders to email kaya to receive the information would have been better.
Posting what was already publicly available on the kaya blog here was mostly a non-issue, a bit unneccesary perhaps but really nothing to get upset about.

/Mats

_________________
mohsart - games & books
http://spel.mohsart.se/

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: A new server is being developed: Kaya.gs
Post #287 Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 3:56 am 
Lives with ko
User avatar

Posts: 209
Location: Blekinge, Sweden
Liked others: 2
Was liked: 38
Rank: Swedish 3 kyu
Would it be a good idea to create a new forum for kaya discussions, or if there is reason to believe that there will not be much discussions a "other servers" forum.
Also, this thread discuss loads of different things so maybe it should be split up into 3-4 threads?

/Mats

_________________
mohsart - games & books
http://spel.mohsart.se/

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: A new server is being developed: Kaya.gs
Post #288 Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 6:45 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 294
Liked others: 25
Was liked: 78
Rank: 6d
KGS: Dexmorgan
Wbaduk: c0nanbatt
mohsart wrote:
Would it be a good idea to create a new forum for kaya discussions, or if there is reason to believe that there will not be much discussions a "other servers" forum.
Also, this thread discuss loads of different things so maybe it should be split up into 3-4 threads?

/Mats


Joaz offered me to open up a new thread. I told him i wanted to wait because i didn't want to put much energy here, but given the last week maybe its time to have a space where each issue can be somewhat discussed separately. I agree that this thread has grown monstruosly.

[admin] To be precise, I offered to create a new sub-forum, as has been done for KGS, IGS, etc -JB [/admin]

_________________
Founder of Kaya.gs

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: A new server is being developed: Kaya.gs
Post #289 Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 9:58 am 
Tengen
User avatar

Posts: 4908
Location: Banbeck Vale
Liked others: 785
Was liked: 1159
Rank: 1D AGA
GD Posts: 1512
Kaya handle: Test
[admin]
There are some serious questions about L19 policies raised in this thread ( such as how L19 should react to posting of other sites' alleged security holes). I'd rather not discuss them in this thread, simply because they are off topic.

I've got lots of real-world work to do today. This evening or tomorrow I will start a thread or two in the 'bugs and suggestions' forum so the issues can be handled calmly and in the appropriate location. I ask for everyone's patience until then.

As for the topic of the thread, there is nothing in the TOS that prevents a member from criticizing another web site - it is only criticizing other members that is explicitly against the rules.
( A prudent member would, of course, try to state such criticisms if the most dispassionate language possible to facilitate a calm, reasoned, and productive discussion. )
-JB

[/admin]

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: A new server is being developed: Kaya.gs
Post #290 Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:34 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 294
Liked others: 25
Was liked: 78
Rank: 6d
KGS: Dexmorgan
Wbaduk: c0nanbatt
Kaya.gs wrote:
mohsart wrote:
Would it be a good idea to create a new forum for kaya discussions, or if there is reason to believe that there will not be much discussions a "other servers" forum.
Also, this thread discuss loads of different things so maybe it should be split up into 3-4 threads?

/Mats


Joaz offered me to open up a new thread. I told him i wanted to wait because i didn't want to put much energy here, but given the last week maybe its time to have a space where each issue can be somewhat discussed separately. I agree that this thread has grown monstruosly.

[admin] To be precise, I offered to create a new sub-forum, as has been done for KGS, IGS, etc -JB [/admin]


Yes , thats what i understood. If Kaya had its own subforum, each topic could be in a separate thread inside the subforum.

No rush, handle your daily life and do it whenever you can.

Regards,

_________________
Founder of Kaya.gs

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: A new server is being developed: Kaya.gs
Post #291 Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:36 am 
Judan

Posts: 7575
Liked others: 1377
Was liked: 1161
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Kaya.gs wrote:
Kaya.gs wrote:
mohsart wrote:
Would it be a good idea to create a new forum for kaya discussions, or if there is reason to believe that there will not be much discussions a "other servers" forum.
Also, this thread discuss loads of different things so maybe it should be split up into 3-4 threads?

/Mats


Joaz offered me to open up a new thread. I told him i wanted to wait because i didn't want to put much energy here, but given the last week maybe its time to have a space where each issue can be somewhat discussed separately. I agree that this thread has grown monstruosly.

[admin] To be precise, I offered to create a new sub-forum, as has been done for KGS, IGS, etc -JB [/admin]


Yes , thats what i understood. If Kaya had its own subforum, each topic could be in a separate thread inside the subforum.

No rush, handle your daily life and do it whenever you can.

Regards,


Sounds like you wanted a subforum, so I set one up.

_________________
What have I learned from this game that I'll be able to use in my own game if the opportunity presents itself?


This post by Kirby was liked by: mohsart
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: A new server is being developed: Kaya.gs
Post #292 Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 1:33 pm 
Lives with ko
User avatar

Posts: 209
Location: Blekinge, Sweden
Liked others: 2
Was liked: 38
Rank: Swedish 3 kyu
Good job Kirby, with a new baby and all.
Personally I'll probably be off of here pretty soon and god knows for how long, once my baby arrives (scheduled for today).
Sorry for being off topic, but this having a baby really is something.

/Mats

_________________
mohsart - games & books
http://spel.mohsart.se/


This post by mohsart was liked by 2 people: Kirby, RBerenguel
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: A new server is being developed: Kaya.gs
Post #293 Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 1:52 pm 
Judan

Posts: 7575
Liked others: 1377
Was liked: 1161
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
mohsart wrote:
Good job Kirby, with a new baby and all.
Personally I'll probably be off of here pretty soon and god knows for how long, once my baby arrives (scheduled for today).
Sorry for being off topic, but this having a baby really is something.

/Mats

Congratulations, mohsart. May the labor be short and trouble free :-)

Regarding the baby, I highly recommend those carrier things you can use to strap the baby to your stomach. Our kid always sleeps in it, even if he was crying seconds earlier. In fact, I am using it right now. In coordination with my iPad, I can read books, play go, use the forum, and do go problems all without having to get up, all the while having me kid right here with me.

Of course, the extra time off work helps :)

_________________
What have I learned from this game that I'll be able to use in my own game if the opportunity presents itself?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: A new server is being developed: Kaya.gs
Post #294 Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 3:56 pm 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 397
Location: Netherlands
Liked others: 102
Was liked: 66
Rank: KGS 1d
KGS: stalkor
so uhh on topic....move this thread?

_________________
admin of the ASR league and KGS admin

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: A new server is being developed: Kaya.gs
Post #295 Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:04 am 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2060
Location: Texas
Liked others: 546
Was liked: 171
Rank: KGS 3k
GD Posts: 264
KGS: Chew
stalkor wrote:
so uhh on topic....move this thread?


Moved, per request.

_________________
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].


This post by Chew Terr was liked by: stalkor
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: A new server is being developed: Kaya.gs
Post #296 Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:44 pm 
Lives in sente

Posts: 871
Liked others: 25
Was liked: 168
I think you'd need to a bit dim to confuse the two.
As a trial, try this spot the difference excercise.
1: Kaya.gs KGS
2: IGS KGS
3: IGS LGS
4: DGS KGS
5: Richard Nixon George Bush

Kaya.gs wrote:
mw42 wrote:
And I am sorry to bring this up again, but this is similar to the whole "name" thing that I (and myself alone it would seem) have a problem with. If it (name confusion with KGS, security) truly becomes an issue then the solution will come too late; so Kaya.gs should be proactive with security issues, and this does not set a good precedent. This is the point illluck was making, I think.


When this matter become a conversation in this very thread, I was very flexible and gave a very clear condition for us to change the name from Kaya.gs to Kaya: that people vote on it.
https://kaya.uservoice.com/forums/130479-ideas-and-suggestions-for-kaya/suggestions/2226710-call-the-project-simply-kaya-

I closed it down on December 7, when we started to design the prizes for the Meijin donors to not cause an issue with sending them outdated material.

It received 8 votes in total from 4 people. That is 8%(4/64) of this months active users, or 2%(4/195) of the users since the feedback site creation . It has over 45 ideas above it being discussed, some of them having 8 times the number of votes.

To add a last thing to this matter, you can call this project kaya as 95% of the people do on a daily basis, including me and Pato. As much as KGS is a short(or used to be) for "Kiseido Go Server" Kaya is a short for Kaya.gs.
It is true the people that dislike that similarity, dislike it very much. I gave a way for us to change our minds on the name. Look a way for you to accept that Kaya.gs is just fine, and its not going to cause issues for KGS o Kaya, which there is no reason to.

Both at that matter as much as this, im totally open to dialogue and im very open minded. If i truly believe a different course of action will benefit end users, i will do it. If illucks intention were innocent and well-intended, he can always clarify that with me as he could when i sent him the private message , and as he can do now by sending me one.

_________________
North Lecale


This post by Javaness2 was liked by 2 people: maproom, speedchase
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: A new server is being developed: Kaya.gs
Post #297 Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 8:42 pm 
Dies in gote
User avatar

Posts: 25
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 4
Rank: 12 kyu
KGS: zazen5
DGS: zazen5
Universal go server handle: zazen5
Bring it on. I hope the number of Go servers buries this planet, assuming there are enough players. It was funny, in December 2011, wuzheng.org, turn based in Hong Kong couldnt take any more players! They had around 12,000 and the server crashed!! This is truly awesome. A horde of Go hungry players! I play on gomatches.com, dragongoserver.net and wuzheng.org. I dont play on Kiseido live anymore because finding matches can be time consuming and I am impatient waiting or being rushed. I would rather take my time and find the best move, it's very very rewarding. And I can do this in correspondence games. So more power to persons who wish to invest their time and money in creating more possibilities for Go training. Bring it!

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: A new server is being developed: Kaya.gs
Post #298 Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:44 am 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 2013
Location: Germany
Liked others: 7262
Was liked: 813
Rank: OGS + EGF DDK
OGS: trohde
Forgive me for necrophiling this thread, but methinks it’s worth it (if not everybody here has registered already): 1h17m to a new release of 300 accounts!

_________________
“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.” — Mark Twain ★ Come and play on OGS

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: A new server is being developed: Kaya.gs
Post #299 Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:55 pm 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 2013
Location: Germany
Liked others: 7262
Was liked: 813
Rank: OGS + EGF DDK
OGS: trohde
Still 229 left …

_________________
“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.” — Mark Twain ★ Come and play on OGS

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: A new server is being developed: Kaya.gs
Post #300 Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:59 pm 
Dies in gote
User avatar

Posts: 25
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 4
Rank: 12 kyu
KGS: zazen5
DGS: zazen5
Universal go server handle: zazen5
I registered the other day at kaya.gs The site admins there are very helpful and allow freedom of speech. This is really really refreshing as opposed to the dictator admins at KGS. One point that could be implemented so kaya works on tablets/phones is a box to input stone coordinates and/or a separate submit button so if a stone is placed wrongly the player doesnt have to beg the opponent for an undo which is annoying to both players. While the chatting is nice, for all the forum activity I expected to see a ton of players, and I dont. There is only a couple correspondence games, next to none in terms of live games. It appears that unless you are around 1 kyu or higher it will be difficult to obtain either a correspondence or a live game. This is tragic given all the time and energy obviously spent on the site. As it stands right now though I find that wuzheng.me, dragongoserver.net, and gomatches.com to be far more efficient for any serious player actually wanting to play and learn Go.

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 309 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 12, 13, 14, 15, 16  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group