New Time System Hourglass

hyperpape · **#41**

Anyone who keeps saying that Fischer is bad because it only works for fast games, or only makes sense if you play fast in the opening, or whatever else needs to just sit down and meditate on Dave's graph.

Seriously, isn't it just beautiful?

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On the other hand, I need to stop looking at that graph because I'm in serious danger of becoming a Fischer Zealot.

oren · **#42**

speedchase wrote:

No, I think what it means is as soon is you move, if it is below ten, it is set back too ten.

So we have another byoyomi system?

ez4u · **#43**

Kaya.gs wrote:

...

Im not going to say i understand the data and graphs perfectly.

Yes, apologies for that. It is always the case that after my enthusiasm gets the better of me and I calculate all this stuff, I only include part of the info due to space limitations! :oops:

Kaya.gs wrote:

What i understand from this is that comparing hourglass to absolute time, in absolute time you are able to spend a long time on a place your opponent isnt thinking a lot on.

In hourglass that is not possible, as you have a low maximum(lowest of all time systems). Im not surprised by this really.

Its really hard to measure the experience of the time setting. As an experience, absolute time is very bad. To some extent, its popular use what will determine if a time system is good or not.

As i said in my previous conclusion, hourglass makes the slower player vulnerable to situations that require a lot of time only for him(wher eits harder to play for him than his opponent, for example), in comparison to canadian/byo-yomi, but better than fischer or fast byo-yomi with no periods left.

EDIT: while digesting my delicious pasta i re-read the graphs. I find the "nasty" case to be a perfect case of what hourglass tries to avoid as a time system.
White probably was left unsatisfied at the time system, and would have liked to either use a lot less absolute time or use another one. And that could have happened with a large main time in any other time system, except Hourglass.

This is where we seem to disagree, not so much on our interpretation of the current example but on the possible motives of the players and the expected general experience that will occur under the timing system. I would agree that White was probably dissatisfied. I would argue that if White did not want to play slowly, the game should never have been accepted (I assume that Black set the terms of the game and White accepted). To me the greatest (potential) weakness of hourglass for general use on a busy server is the ability of the player accepting an offered game to disrupt the expectations of the originator. For that reason I do not anticipate ever using hourglass when I am in the mood for serious Go. Of course, I could turn out to be wrong! Only the future will tell and only kaya.gs will offer the ability to test my expectations. :clap:

Kaya.gs wrote:

In the end i think that there is no one Time System to rule them all. They fit into different situations (except Canadian. I hate canadian.), which could be round organization (nothing better than absolute for a one-day tournament), well thought games (large byo-yomi) or a quick blitz( Fischer).

Hourglass is now in the mix and i think it satisfies this particular problem i mention in the EDIT.

Bronstein is half-done, but has very low priority. It will probably happen before canadian

.

I think that I have written all that I have to say on hourglass. The greatest thing is that it will be only one of a rich mix of timing possibilities on kaya.gs that we will be able to experiment with for the first time. Thanks for all your hard work and the imagination that you have brought to the server wars! :tmbup:

palapiku · **#44**

hyperpape wrote:

Anyone who keeps saying that Fischer is bad because it only works for fast games, or only makes sense if you play fast in the opening, or whatever else needs to just sit down and meditate on Dave's graph.

Seriously, isn't it just beautiful?

Infinite possibilities!

ez4u · **#45**

SpongeBob wrote:

Your last post confuses me, Gabriel ...

While I would rather have you work on the server instead of having to reply to stupid posts here, I cannot resist to ask once more:

Say my clock is run down to almost zero and I make my move just in time. My opponent now has the basic time on his clock (for example 10 min). My opponent makes his move within 2 seconds. I assumed my clock now is set to 10 s.

After your last reply it seems my clock is set to 12 s. This would mean the algorithm checks my clock at the beginning of my move and if it is below 10 s, then 10 s are added. This would be very strange, because there would be a very different situation for 9 s and 11 s - so that does not make sense ...

A quick clarification on this point. The way "delay" (versus various forms of "increment") works in all systems is that the clocks literally do nothing for the period of the delay. For hourglass this is actually essential since the sum of the opponents' available time always must equal the total hourglass. So in the example above your clock is at 2 seconds. It sits without moving for up to 10 seconds because of the delay. Only after 11 seconds does it start to tick down. If the opponents play a series of moves each within the delay time, you can get a long run where nothing changes on the clocks. This type of thing is visible in some of the graphs that I put up earlier, especially the first one.

Loons · **#46**

My qualm is. I don't see why I should have or ever want to care if my opponent doesn't want to use their time. That's not go, right?

Also, I would never elect to play a 5 to 15s byoyomi serious match. Just saying.

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Charlie · **#47**

hyperpape wrote:

On the other hand, I need to stop looking at that graph because I'm in serious danger of becoming a Fischer Zealot.

You and me, both.

Fischer time is great. The adjusted time is predictable, it's simple and elegant and it is even the easiest to explain to new players.

New Time System Hourglass

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