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Good job guys!
http://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=6887		 Page 1 of 6
Author:  Falcord [ Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Good job guys!
I wanted to make a bit of a lighthearted thread so you can see not everything is criticism =).

I must say that after using Kaya for a week, I'm really happy with how it's turning out. Granted, it's not perfect yet, but it shows great design and a very elegant layout. I'm excited for Kaya and can't wait for the technical problems it faces to be fixed.

Thank you very much for working for this. I'm a little short on money currently but otherwise I'd support without a doubt.
Author:  Kaya.gs [ Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Good job guys!
Falcord wrote:
I wanted to make a bit of a lighthearted thread so you can see not everything is criticism =).

I must say that after using Kaya for a week, I'm really happy with how it's turning out. Granted, it's not perfect yet, but it shows great design and a very elegant layout. I'm excited for Kaya and can't wait for the technical problems it faces to be fixed.

Thank you very much for working for this. I'm a little short on money currently but otherwise I'd support without a doubt.



Thanks a lot :) We are working really hard, putting a lot of effort to add more and more features.
Author:  Zombie [ Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Good job guys!
One thing that might do good: HD video of games played on Kaya to show that drop dead gorgeous UI of yours! Most Go server UIs look bland or amateurish at best, the brilliant look is one of your biggest assets. Utilize it!
Author:  Alguien [ Sat Oct 06, 2012 5:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Good job guys!
Zombie wrote:
One thing that might do good: HD video of games played on Kaya to show that drop dead gorgeous UI of yours! Most Go server UIs look bland or amateurish at best, the brilliant look is one of your biggest assets. Utilize it!


This is a good idea and I agree with the looks advantage (also, better sounds).
Author:  Kaya.gs [ Sat Oct 06, 2012 8:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Good job guys!
Alguien wrote:
Zombie wrote:
One thing that might do good: HD video of games played on Kaya to show that drop dead gorgeous UI of yours! Most Go server UIs look bland or amateurish at best, the brilliant look is one of your biggest assets. Utilize it!


This is a good idea and I agree with the looks advantage (also, better sounds).


You should check out the new countdown voices. They still need a bit of polishing to my taste, but they are a nice improvement :)
Author:  badukJr [ Sat Oct 06, 2012 11:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Good job guys!
Zombie wrote:
One thing that might do good: HD video of games played on Kaya to show that drop dead gorgeous UI of yours! Most Go server UIs look bland or amateurish at best, the brilliant look is one of your biggest assets. Utilize it!


I think the UI is one of the weakest points. The top bar is gigantic, takes up so much screen space for 3 buttons. Google does it pretty good with the top bar to switch between their different products. The list of users on the chat list is also really inefficient, the names are spaced out so much for some reason. You could double the amount of names displayed easily with that amount of room. The way they are displayed in game is much much better. :tmbup:
Author:  oren [ Sat Oct 06, 2012 1:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Good job guys!
I have trouble with the tiny scroll bars, game buttons, and then inefficient use of space on the main screen.

Some things are working well, but the UI needs much work.
Author:  stalkor [ Sun Oct 07, 2012 2:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Good job guys!
oren wrote:
I have trouble with the tiny scroll bars, game buttons, and then inefficient use of space on the main screen.

Some things are working well, but the UI needs much work.


translation: i need a kaya version for the clicking impaired:D

keep up the good work gabriel:P
Author:  oren [ Sun Oct 07, 2012 10:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Good job guys!
Pretty much. I'm getting old. :)

However, no other major server has as bad a ui as kaya right now. I assume that is a work in progress.
Author:  hyperpape [ Sun Oct 07, 2012 4:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Good job guys!
oren wrote:
I have trouble with the tiny scroll bars, game buttons, and then inefficient use of space on the main screen.
The scroll bars are a fine size, your computer just stinks: it's a shame that there are still computers/OSes that don't support multitouch gestures for scrolling. (Note: I have a computer that stinks in the exact same way).
Author:  oren [ Sun Oct 07, 2012 5:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Good job guys!
hyperpape wrote:
The scroll bars are a fine size, your computer just stinks


Nice to know my computers all stink. :)
Author:  Charlie [ Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Good job guys!
The Kaya U.I. has potential but I will agree that, at the moment, it sucks. Those Javascript animations are so painfully slow it is ridiculous (even in Chrome, on an i7, where there is no excuse) and the little U.I. bugs that seem to persist for ages drive me crazy - boxes not focussing or stealing focus, or invisible text on certain backgrounds, etc. Also, what's with the tiny clocks?

My two biggest problems with Kaya are not U.I. related, however.

The single biggest problem is the integration of the ASR - way too early! At the moment, you might as well rename it the ASR server because all the open games are ASR games (whenever I log on) and non-ASR players can't join those. I have even seen TWO open ASR game challenges and no users actually playing, added my own non-ASR challenge and disconnected in frustration ten minutes later after getting no takers.

The second problem is the Karma system. Honestly, why? It is unnecessary, distracting and detracts from the point of the server: playing Go. Also, it seems to steer the majority of the chat in open channels towards Karma-begging. Lose it!
Author:  daal [ Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Good job guys!
Charlie wrote:

The single biggest problem is the integration of the ASR - way too early! At the moment, you might as well rename it the ASR server because all the open games are ASR games (whenever I log on) and non-ASR players can't join those. I have even seen TWO open ASR game challenges and no users actually playing, added my own non-ASR challenge and disconnected in frustration ten minutes later after getting no takers.


It does seem that quite a few people not in the ASR come to Kaya to check it out briefly and don't seem to play much, whereas the ASR members are already taking it seriously and pushing for improvements. As far as I can tell, quite a bit of progress is taking place due to the active beta testing by ASR members, and an offered ASR game hardly prevents other games from taking place. Playing in the ASR is a great way to get to know the features of the server, as you will often encounter players there who know a bit about how things work there. There's still room in beta. :)
Author:  Mef [ Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Good job guys!
daal wrote:
Charlie wrote:

The single biggest problem is the integration of the ASR - way too early! At the moment, you might as well rename it the ASR server because all the open games are ASR games (whenever I log on) and non-ASR players can't join those. I have even seen TWO open ASR game challenges and no users actually playing, added my own non-ASR challenge and disconnected in frustration ten minutes later after getting no takers.


It does seem that quite a few people not in the ASR come to Kaya to check it out briefly and don't seem to play much, whereas the ASR members are already taking it seriously and pushing for improvements. As far as I can tell, quite a bit of progress is taking place due to the active beta testing by ASR members, and an offered ASR game hardly prevents other games from taking place. Playing in the ASR is a great way to get to know the features of the server, as you will often encounter players there who know a bit about how things work there. There's still room in beta. :)



I'll agree that Charlie has overstated it a bit, but I understand the sentiment and would echo it in a slightly different way --

The single biggest problem with Kaya is that there has been such a rush to implement new requested features that aren't seen on any other go server, that common features we enjoy on our current go servers have been neglected. I think part of this problem stems from the way feature requests are managed. If you have the community voting on what they really want to see, the first things they think of are all the stuff they don't get anywhere else...while the mundane things they take for granted and are accustomed to aren't on the forefront of their minds (because those desires are being met elsewhere).

It would be similar to saying "Man, I really wish I had a car with a rear facing camera! Think of how easy it would be to park!". Then you go out to test drive a new car that has a rear facing camera, only to find out it has a manual transmission, or no power windows. What you really meant to say was "I wish that my current car that has automatic transmission/power windows/every-other-amenity-I-am-used-to had a rear facing camera" but you don't think to list all those things you use on a day-in day-out basis because, y'know...you were used to them always being there...
Author:  quantumf [ Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Good job guys!
Mef wrote:
The single biggest problem with Kaya is that there has been such a rush to implement new requested features that aren't seen on any other go server, that common features we enjoy on our current go servers have been neglected. I think part of this problem stems from the way feature requests are managed. If you have the community voting on what they really want to see, the first things they think of are all the stuff they don't get anywhere else...while the mundane things they take for granted and are accustomed to aren't on the forefront of their minds (because those desires are being met elsewhere).

It would be similar to saying "Man, I really wish I had a car with a rear facing camera! Think of how easy it would be to park!". Then you go out to test drive a new car that has a rear facing camera, only to find out it has a manual transmission, or no power windows. What you really meant to say was "I wish that my current car that has automatic transmission/power windows/every-other-amenity-I-am-used-to had a rear facing camera" but you don't think to list all those things you use on a day-in day-out basis because, y'know...you were used to them always being there...


That's quite a nice way of putting it, although I think you may also be overstating it a bit :) Kaya is not THAT focused on doodads. However, I do agree with you that the focus should really be on the absolute basics - rock solid game and scoring system, robust/reliable time system, competent and trustworthy ranking system, solid handicap system, and most importantly, a decent player base. I don't think the kaya guys realize the extent that they actually already have a killer feature, namely an HTML-based go server that runs over HTTP. The other stuff like tournaments, videos, karma and sensei's integration, while undoubtedly cool, and important in the long run, are far less important right now.
Author:  Mef [ Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Good job guys!
quantumf wrote:
That's quite a nice way of putting it, although I think you may also be overstating it a bit :) Kaya is not THAT focused on doodads. However, I do agree with you that the focus should really be on the absolute basics - rock solid game and scoring system, robust/reliable time system, competent and trustworthy ranking system, solid handicap system, and most importantly, a decent player base. I don't think the kaya guys realize the extent that they actually already have a killer feature, namely an HTML-based go server that runs over HTTP. The other stuff like tournaments, videos, karma and sensei's integration, while undoubtedly cool, and important in the long run, are far less important right now.



I honestly don't mean to be argumentative...but if anything I feel I might have been understating it.

edit: This was a list with a variety of examples, but after reviewing my post I think it will be more effective to focus on one that I think best demonstrates my point:

-I was trying the SGF editor kaya provides and loaded a recent commented game from the AGA E-Journal, and it would appear the SGF editor does not support any SGF markup (Black should play A...but there is no A?!).


So this means Kaya has:

-Hourglass time
-A button for translation
-Sensei's Library integration
-A fully functioning karma system
-Ways of filtering go vs. non-go comments
-"Malkovich" Comments by game players
-An expandable widgets menu I'll admit I don't fully understand (This is for integrated video?)
-ASR integration
-Active previews of ongoing games in the games list
-Automatic replays of professional games


But lacks:

-Basic SGF markup support (Labelled variations, marked stones, etc)--in spite of the ability to load an SGF file.

I think this is the perfect example of a feature many would expect, but never think to request or vote on. I also think that if you explicitly presented this option to the userbase, many would consider the latter much more important to a go server than many of the former options.
Author:  badukJr [ Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Good job guys!
The biggest reason that Kaya doesn't retain any users from the account release is that its a chatterbox server not a social go server. The backbone of a go server population are people who just come and play games without ever saying anything. Kaya doesn't offer these people anything, because it only offers things to people who are loud about their opinions. The bloat load that Kaya puts on computers with tons of fluff really discourage people who have older computers. So, people who just want to play go don't play at Kaya because its laggy as hell and their CPU is getting slammed.

The other thing is that Kaya is not really a social go server. Not many people want to chat in the main room of a server, they want to make their own room so that their clique can enjoy each other's company without others butting in. You can't do this in Kaya, which is why right now its a chatterbox server. Nobody wants to move to a server where their group can't move to. This is why the server is so ASR heavy, a place has been given to them so they have come.

daal wrote:
There's still room in beta. :)


I just wanted to point out that you responded to Charlie's post with karma begging in your signature. Maybe you were aiming for that though.
Author:  shapenaji [ Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Good job guys!
I actually think the problem with Kaya is simpler than that it's a chatty server, or it lacks some review support.

The lack of a negotiation step when it comes to games.

It's something I take for granted everywhere else. Basically, if I put up a game request on there, I have no control over who I play. As a result, I feel like most games played are a result of negotiation in the chat room.

It's devolved into a direct challenge system. A direct challenge system can work for a server like IGS, which is so old that people are willing to accept some quirks, but it just won't work for a new server that's trying to get people to hang out and spend some time there.
Author:  Charlie [ Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Good job guys!
The reason that I mentioned ASR integration was *not* because I have anything against the ASR - in fact, I consider it to be a good idea in essence. However, it definitely polarizes the user-base, splitting the minuscule set of active users into those who are in and those who are out.

The bottom line is this, though: at any given time of day, what are your chances of getting a game on Kaya?

Every feature developed now should aim at improving that chance. Everything else can wait.
Author:  quantumf [ Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Good job guys!
Charlie wrote:
Every feature developed now should aim at improving that chance. Everything else can wait.


Fair point, but much harder to clarify. Presumably this is a function primarily of the size of the userbase, and to a lesser extent, the degree to which people are happy to play on the server, which involves things that I outlined above, and others have also mentioned (e.g. good ranking system, good negotiation system). The size of the userbase is currently being explicitly limited, quite sensibly I believe.

At the moment you're a beta tester, not a regular player, and as such should really be commenting on bugs, not the ease of getting a game (although bugs or usability issues that make this hard should be raised, such as the negotiation system). I'm sure the early days of KGS or IGS were similarly ghost-town like.
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