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 Post subject: Re: Good job guys!
Post #101 Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 6:00 am 
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Asking for a desktop client in 2012 (nearly 2013) is ridiculous. Desktop clients are a thing of the past and Kaya is a forward-looking server. HTML 5 is the way of the future.

That said, Kaya could offer a much better in-browser experience. At the moment, it opens *everything* in a new tab or window - the equivalent of a Windows 95 app that makes everything a modal popup window.

Waiting for a game to start is a perfect example. That should be a mode-less floating dialog or fixed overlay or something on the main Kaya screen - NOT a tab. The tab should open when the game actually begins.

Similarly, viewing preferences, user profiles, etc... none of those should open tabs unless you specifically ask for a new tab by holding Ctrl or Shift or something.

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Post #102 Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 6:54 am 
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99.9999% of my apps are still desktop apps. I dont understand why running it in my browser is such a good idea? What does it really bring to the table?
Using webkit or whatever you can still get all the benefits of running the latest code, automatic updates, etc etc but at least it will be a separate application, can have a nicer way of handling multiple rooms and games (I hate that Kaya opens up new browser window or tab whenever I press anything for example).
If this is the future, I dont want to be part of it, sorry. :)

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Post #103 Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:38 pm 
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There are applications that convert single pages into standalone applications (Fluid for Mac comes to mind, I haven't played with anything similar for Windows/Linux). Technically, nothing is really different, but you get the advantage of a) a dedicated icon for your start menu or application launcher or whatever, and b) a separate window that you can alt/command-tab to. Both features can make life a lot more pleasant.

I don't know how that works with a webapp that wants to spawn multiple tabs. I too find that obnoxious about Kaya, and hope that it at least becomes an option to run everything through a single tab.

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 Post subject: Re: Good job guys!
Post #104 Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 3:07 pm 
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Just created a Dashboard web clip in Safari of the Kaya beta page … works GERAT, incl. chat, BUT sadly won’t (cause prolly can’t) open game tabs etc.

But I guess it should be possible to create a web clip of a game you’re playing for use in Dashboard … anybody wanna try?

And then I remember there was an app, kind of browser, but just for one purpose. IIRC it was possible to use instances of this browser app for sepcific web sites/web applications. This could be what you're looking for, if you don't want to use “just another browser” for Kaya. But I can’t remember the name … MacUpdate.com should help.

<edit>

Could be that the app Hyperpape mentions is what I meant.

</edit>

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 Post subject: Re: Good job guys!
Post #105 Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 3:45 am 
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Mef wrote:
badukJr wrote:

Earn ratings points for AGA/EGA - 60 Votes
30 Community comments and no feedback from Kaya


To be fair, the major barrier here will be dealing with the organizations themselves. As far as I know there is some resistance to using online games for "real life" rating purposes (and perhaps rightly so!).


Rightly so. You open the door to cheating by allowing server games for official rating. Probably not an issue for the top20, but for everyone else. (Read strong go bots, help from stronger players, ...) Also, it is pointless to request this on the feedback section of a server - there is absolutely no possibility that such a change would be implemented as a free advertisement for only a single server.

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 Post subject: Re: Good job guys!
Post #106 Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:50 am 
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coderboy wrote:
99.9999% of my apps are still desktop apps. I dont understand why running it in my browser is such a good idea? What does it really bring to the table?
Using webkit or whatever you can still get all the benefits of running the latest code, automatic updates, etc etc but at least it will be a separate application, can have a nicer way of handling multiple rooms and games (I hate that Kaya opens up new browser window or tab whenever I press anything for example).
If this is the future, I dont want to be part of it, sorry. :)


Hi coderboy.

The problem is not browser vs standalone. The problem is maintaining 1 app vs maintaining 2 apps. For a 2-man team (which I seem to remember that was) and such ambitious project - this is a HUGE difference. Sure doable, but personally I rather them work on improving what they have right now rather than starting a new application.

PS>
Besides, as others have mentioned - the local solution is simple. Download chrome (for example), set its starting page to Kaya, set it so that new pages open in new tabs instead of new windows, and voila - instant KGS-like dedicated Kaya client. You do your regular browsing in Safari/IE/whatever and click on the Chrome icon to play Kaya. Simple, elegant, and extra resources are minimal.

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 Post subject: Re: Good job guys!
Post #107 Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 3:11 pm 
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Charlie wrote:
Asking for a desktop client in 2012 (nearly 2013) is ridiculous. Desktop clients are a thing of the past and Kaya is a forward-looking server. HTML 5 is the way of the future.
Right. But as a new product on the market, the last thing Kaya wants to do is narrow their market base. By excluding those individuals who would prefer a desktop client, that is effectively what they are doing. Why not offer both? (apart from technical limitations.) It might be looking to the future, sure, but it's not great marketing. Some of us are "old-fashioned" types who prefer what may be considered obsolete. Why move to an arbitrary future if some of us prefer the old ways?

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Post #108 Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 3:36 pm 
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Annihilist wrote:
[..] as a new product on the market, the last thing Kaya wants to do is narrow their market base.

Actually they are widening their potential user base: JAVA is not an option to many people (iOS, security reasons, etc.) but with HTML5 is possible to run on almost any modern browser.

Quote:
By excluding those individuals who would prefer a desktop client, that is effectively what they are doing.

That’s exactly the point: You're writing about a preference, not about technical reasons. I guess there are more people not using KGS because of JAVA than people that will not use Kaya b/c of HTML5.

Quote:
Why not offer both? (apart from technical limitations.)

Resources, AKA time, money and people who work on this?

Quote:
It might be looking to the future, sure, but it's not great marketing.

Well, methinks Kayas first motivation is not marketing. At least not now, as long as they're still developing.

Quote:
Some of us are "old-fashioned" types who prefer what may be considered obsolete. Why move to an arbitrary future if some of us prefer the old ways?
I’d say you’re naming the reason, and twice so in two sentences: »some of us« and »prefer«.

Not that I wouldn’t empathize with your wish, but I suggest you try the suggestions that have been made, especially using a dedicated browser. There’s actually not much that would change for you except that … it’s not CGoban or GoPanda.

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 Post subject: Re: Good job guys!
Post #109 Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 2:31 am 
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Bonobo wrote:
(...) I guess there are more people not using KGS because of JAVA than people that will not use Kaya b/c of HTML5.


Totally agree. Mobile is the market of the future and html5 is the only choice for this market. At this moment playing Kaya mobile is not better than Kaya on PC but it's way more handy to play anywhere I want vs play where your PC is wired. I open Kaya via ipad and iphone4 and it works great. These devices are fairly old as for todays tech standards; with time Html will never be a problem for them but apps will. Apps alway has minimal OS requirements, and with time these requirements are growing, and older generations of hardware will sooner than later be out of their OS updates. What else I can say? Thank god for Kaya.

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 Post subject: Re: Good job guys!
Post #110 Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 3:56 am 
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Bonobo wrote:
That’s exactly the point: You're writing about a preference, not about technical reasons. I guess there are more people not using KGS because of JAVA than people that will not use Kaya b/c of HTML5.



One caveat here -- if there were that much of a market looking for a purely browser-based solution, you would think more people would have been using GoShrine over the last 4 years.


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 Post subject: Re: Good job guys!
Post #111 Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 4:49 am 
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Mef wrote:
Bonobo wrote:
That’s exactly the point: You're writing about a preference, not about technical reasons. I guess there are more people not using KGS because of JAVA than people that will not use Kaya b/c of HTML5.

One caveat here -- if there were that much of a market looking for a purely browser-based solution, you would think more people would have been using GoShrine over the last 4 years.

Well, almost 11.000+ registered users … that’s not too bad, IMHO. But no idea how many active currently, and, since I haven’t looked at GoShrine yet, I have no idea whether perhaps a lack of features or any problems could be a reason for people not rushing to GoShrine.

Anyway, thanks for pointing towards GoShrine, I just registered there so that I can compare.

<edit>

And re: “if there were that much of a market looking for a purely browser-based solution” … for me it is more a growing number of people looking for a solution independent of the users’ soft- and hardware. I can imagine my fridge telling me in ten years that it’s my move in that game on DGS :D

</edit>

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 Post subject: Re: Good job guys!
Post #112 Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 6:28 am 
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Bonobo wrote:
I can imagine my fridge telling me in ten years that it’s my move in that game on DGS :D


We're straying off topic...but if you really wanted this to happen I'm pretty sure it's already possible...There are "smart" refrigerators that already integrate with google calendar or twitter. If you didn't want to even try to make a customized fridge solution, getting a phone to automatically post to one of those shouldn't be too hard (For android I'd think it would be straightforward with just anDGS and Tasker...You might even be able to use EidoGoTweet and have the board position show up in your fridge-based twitter feed for you. I'm sure there's a similar solution for iOS).


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 Post subject: Re: Good job guys!
Post #113 Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:07 am 
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I don't understand what the point of this thread is...

Have any of you ever coded anything? Supported any type of software through the software development lifecycle?

I assume not.

Not to mention ever dealt with ungrateful, inconsiderate users who do not give credit where credit is due.

Kaya more than likely has thousands of lines of code all of which are managed, and balanced by the same devs you are bickering, and complaining at.

I think it is ridiculous the amount grumbling going on around here. State your opinion, and move on with your business.


I for one think Kaya while it needs to be polished is a step in the right direction. The board UI is wonderful compared to any other Go server I have played on, and I believe as a learning environment it excels far past any other offerings.

Stop nitpicking something that has the potential to out do all servers, and give the development team time to get things done.

Software developments, and changes do NOT instantly happen. It takes time, planning, and consideration before even planning the code before coding.

I support Kaya 100%. It is where I will play when I play live games.

I am amazed people here support KGS with other threads in this very forum talking about the growth of KGS players being MINIMAL compared to other servers.

Kaya is where I will play, and learn.

GO KAYA.

To the Dev team:
You can't please everyone so find the direction you want to take, listen to some opinions and take it. If you take everyones advice you WILL fail. If you don't take anyones advice you WILL fail. (Probably sure you already know this).

But the biggest way you will fail is if you do not stick by the spirit of the Kaya project that made you create it from the beginning.

Peace.


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 Post subject: Re: Good job guys!
Post #114 Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:25 am 
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Uzziel wrote:
Have any of you ever coded anything? Supported any type of software through the software development lifecycle?


Yes, many times.

I think most of the issues brought up are valid and interesting. I don't play on Kaya (I do chat there) because I find the UI to be the worst of any of the clients I can use. I find the game creation mechanic also a bit odd compared to other servers, but it's not a major issue to me.

Every product in the world will have people complaining about it, but I think for the most part this thread has brought up valid issues that potential users have with Kaya.

If you have been through software lifecycles and not seen users complain about valid issues I would like to know where you work. :)

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Post #115 Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:27 pm 
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oren wrote:
Uzziel wrote:
Have any of you ever coded anything? Supported any type of software through the software development lifecycle?


Yes, many times.

I think most of the issues brought up are valid and interesting. I don't play on Kaya (I do chat there) because I find the UI to be the worst of any of the clients I can use. I find the game creation mechanic also a bit odd compared to other servers, but it's not a major issue to me.

Every product in the world will have people complaining about it, but I think for the most part this thread has brought up valid issues that potential users have with Kaya.

If you have been through software lifecycles and not seen users complain about valid issues I would like to know where you work. :)



I think any programmer who has been through this cycle would have empathy rather than harshness toward this instance. Which makes me doubt you have ever been within this process because if you had you would know what it feels like to have critics tearing down your work of art.

How much time has anyone in this thread put forth from day one to do anything technically with Kaya?

My guess is none because if there was anyone like that they would have a sense of ownership instead of crybaby, its not fair, give me my bottle, typical user ignorant codemnation.

It is one thing to suggest an improvement or a necessary change.

It is quite another to act immature, and childish because you do not feel like you are being listened to.

If everyone wants the change so bad why don't you join the project?

Or

Better yet create your own online go server! (Can't wait to play on it.)

Ohh because it EASY being CRITICS.

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Post #116 Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:11 pm 
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Uzziel wrote:
I think any programmer who has been through this cycle would have empathy rather than harshness toward this instance. Which makes me doubt you have ever been within this process because if you had you would know what it feels like to have critics tearing down your work of art.


Heh, I can point to many instances of my work out in the field and complaints. I know I do the best I can, and I don't tell the people using my software to have more empathy for me.

Uzziel wrote:
How much time has anyone in this thread put forth from day one to do anything technically with Kaya?


Why should anyone? Conanbatt has said his intent is to make money from this project which makes it a product he is developing. If it was an open source project, I would help or if I was paid to, I would help. As it is, it's a product in open beta that is free to criticize.

Uzziel wrote:
It is quite another to act immature, and childish because you do not feel like you are being listened to.


What childishness have you seen here? Looking through the thread this has been one of the most civil on L19 which is saying something.

Uzziel wrote:
Better yet create your own online go server! (Can't wait to play on it.)
Ohh because it EASY being CRITICS.


I've worked on free open source Android go software when there were features I wanted lacking. I see no reason to create an online go server when there are multiple good online servers already.

Why do you have such a problem with people discussing issues with an open beta server in a calm manner? If you feel there are unfair attacks I can understand it, but most people are just pointing out what they feel are shortcomings which conanbatt has stated are design decisions. This is open discussion on a board.


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 Post subject: Re: Good job guys!
Post #117 Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:32 pm 
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oren wrote:
Uzziel wrote:
I think any programmer who has been through this cycle would have empathy rather than harshness toward this instance. Which makes me doubt you have ever been within this process because if you had you would know what it feels like to have critics tearing down your work of art.


Heh, I can point to many instances of my work out in the field and complaints. I know I do the best I can, and I don't tell the people using my software to have more empathy for me.

Uzziel wrote:
How much time has anyone in this thread put forth from day one to do anything technically with Kaya?


Why should anyone? Conanbatt has said his intent is to make money from this project which makes it a product he is developing. If it was an open source project, I would help or if I was paid to, I would help. As it is, it's a product in open beta that is free to criticize.

Uzziel wrote:
It is quite another to act immature, and childish because you do not feel like you are being listened to.


What childishness have you seen here? Looking through the thread this has been one of the most civil on L19 which is saying something.

Uzziel wrote:
Better yet create your own online go server! (Can't wait to play on it.)
Ohh because it EASY being CRITICS.


I've worked on free open source Android go software when there were features I wanted lacking. I see no reason to create an online go server when there are multiple good online servers already.

Why do you have such a problem with people discussing issues with an open beta server in a calm manner? If you feel there are unfair attacks I can understand it, but most people are just pointing out what they feel are shortcomings which conanbatt has stated are design decisions. This is open discussion on a board.



Ok it is a for profit Go server. Well that changes everything.

If he is building it to make money then that just comes with the package.

I was thinking this was a free opensource crowdsourced project, and
I didn't know he would charge money in the future to be a part of it.


If there will be an ongoing income stream then I have no qualms with this thread.

If you would put on the glasses of me thinking this was an opensource
project everything i mistakenly said will come into focus.

I had the view that this project was being done without profit, and therefore
got upset because in this perspective a lot of the comments made on this thread
are very cutting.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

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 Post subject: Re: Good job guys!
Post #118 Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:31 pm 
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Uzziel wrote:
I had the view that this project was being done without profit, and therefore
got upset because in this perspective a lot of the comments made on this thread
are very cutting.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.



While some of the history is already lost to the ether...In the event you have a lot of free time and are curious about some of the early stuff relating to Kaya / where some users on this forum are coming from, you can check out this thread: http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=5258

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Post #119 Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:27 am 
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Uzziel wrote:
Ok it is a for profit Go server. Well that changes everything.

[DATA EXPUNGED FOR BREVITY]


The plan is to both offer a paying subscription for supplemental features (similar to KGS+), and have parts of the code remain opensource. Conan could tell you exactly which would be.

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