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 Post subject: Re: Good job guys!
Post #81 Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:54 pm 
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Don`t you think we should leave this alone for now?

We`ve presented good reasons for allowing accept/decline at the least, but ultimately we have no right to try to force Gabriel and Pato to change their minds. It`s their server, and they get to decide.

Besides, the harder you try to make somebody agree with you, the more they will resent it, even if you are correct. It`s not the end of the world if you cannot reject your challenger on Kaya. It could turn out, in practice, to have little impact on how enjoyable the server is to play. It could be that Gabriel and Pato are right, and we are wrong, and that their way makes the experience more enjoyable. If we give them space to change their minds without feeling cornered, then they might, but again, it`s their choice. It could be that we beat them into submission with iron bars of irrefutable logic, but do you think they would like that?

Respecting others` opinions and decisions, even when you disagree, indeed passionately disagree, is ultimately to respect yourself, because if you can acknowledge and defend their boundaries, you can also recognise and protect your own.

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 Post subject: Re: Good job guys!
Post #82 Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:33 pm 
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Kaya.gs wrote:
badukJr wrote:

Pick some system then. Kaya doesn't really have a 'system'. It honestly feels unfinished.
The only pro that you keep bringing up is that no time is wasted. You get to save 20 or 30 seconds over other systems (to play a game that takes an hour or two).
There are so many cons that have been voiced in this thread. Real cons. For example the abuse issue of this system, you want to fix it when it becomes a problem. Why wait? Why wait until the server population gets large, and it becomes a problem, and you have to spend a week coding a solution? While everyone vacates the server because it gets difficult to find a proper game? Its kind of crazy to stonewall like this, I seriously don't understand.

It is your server, do what you want. It is just frustrating because earlier on you pounded your chest about adding Fischer time because its what the PEOPLE wanted, man. Now it seems like what the people want means squat-all. You are being dismissive with pretty bad reasoning in my opinion.


It does not serve the community or Kaya to get riled up in a feature conversation. It is also silly to want to make a stronger argument by appealing to attack our intents or our way to work.

Kaya has the most broad and extensive user feedback system than any other server out there by 100 miles. Over 40 user requested features were implemented. Those are tracked, commented and done. Between the tweaki, email, chat and partially this forum, saying that we dont listen to our users is disregarding for the respectful every-day work we do.

I welcome this conversation on Kaya or the other official Kaya channels, where its much harder to get riled up and its a lot more practical when it comes to describing desires.

Keep tuned for what is coming next! There is likely going to be a mid release this weekend with a new feature provided by aleski :)

Regards.


I saw this conversation happen on Kaya and it played out exactly the same way. It doesn't make a difference.
I was hoping we'd get a server admin less stubborn about things than wms, but we've somehow ended up with one more stubborn.
Extensive user feedback systems can be a farce. Take listener requests on the radio. 99% of the stations just record a listener call that requests a song they were going to play anyway, its a good way to involve the people without involving the people.

Lets have a look at the most popular on the tweaki -
Game Start Timer - 122 Votes
Been 100% nixed here and other places, not going to happen

Go Houses, Teams, or Clans - 106 Votes
"this is a requirement for users, not us." nixed

An open API - 97 Votes
Negative feedback from Kaya, no update on decision for over a year

Achievement System - 72 Votes
Probably going to get implemented! - more than a year ago

Earn ratings points for AGA/EGA - 60 Votes
30 Community comments and no feedback from Kaya

Profile images should be saved on the server - 58 Votes
Posted since April and no feedback from Kaya

Database of games and patterns - 51 Votes
Go use eidogo.com - Kaya

Much larger clocks - 45 Votes
No feedback from Kaya

Integrated Tsumengo - 43 Votes
"I am working on this right now" 11 Months ago

Separate Ranks - 41 Votes
"Like this one" but no update from over a year ago

Most of the 'started' ideas were started over a year ago, and a lot of the completed ideas were things that people suggested that were already implemented (see the radio request comparison)

You basically pumped up all these ideas early on through the tweaki and got people to throw you five figures, I think they got a right to grouse when you stonewall on a necessary feature (really). You don't have to implement the features, but I think its kind of lame to try to stop discussion on it.

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 Post subject: Re: Good job guys!
Post #83 Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 5:22 am 
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badukJr wrote:
I saw this conversation happen on Kaya and it played out exactly the same way. It doesn't make a difference.
I was hoping we'd get a server admin less stubborn about things than wms, but we've somehow ended up with one more stubborn.
Extensive user feedback systems can be a farce. Take listener requests on the radio. 99% of the stations just record a listener call that requests a song they were going to play anyway, its a good way to involve the people without involving the people.


I have not had this discussion on Kaya ever(At least i cant recall having it). Come to Kaya today and lets discuss it with the users.

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 Post subject: Re: Good job guys!
Post #84 Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 5:23 am 
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badukJr wrote:

Earn ratings points for AGA/EGA - 60 Votes
30 Community comments and no feedback from Kaya


To be fair, the major barrier here will be dealing with the organizations themselves. As far as I know there is some resistance to using online games for "real life" rating purposes (and perhaps rightly so!).

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 Post subject: Re: Good job guys!
Post #85 Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:00 am 
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Mef wrote:
To be fair, the major barrier here will be dealing with the organizations themselves. As far as I know there is some resistance to using online games for "real life" rating purposes (and perhaps rightly so!).

also to be fair, more than half those comments are me arguing with someone about it.

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 Post subject: Re: Good job guys!
Post #86 Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 5:06 pm 
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Can we have a downloadable client as an option? I personally don't like the in-browser interface, because everything opens in new windows and gets messy. I don't like using multiple browser windows at once.

Just my two cents.

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 Post subject: Re: Good job guys!
Post #87 Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:56 am 
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Annihilist wrote:
Can we have a downloadable client as an option? I personally don't like the in-browser interface, because everything opens in new windows and gets messy. I don't like using multiple browser windows at once.

Just my two cents.


But what OS? Linux, Windows, OSX, iOS, Android, Windows Phone? I would like it too but it could end as very limited and not pleasing experience. Such client/app is hell of a work for such small team. WWW means universal.

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 Post subject: Re: Good job guys!
Post #88 Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:10 am 
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lobotommy wrote:
But what OS? Linux, Windows, OSX, iOS, Android, Windows Phone? I would like it too but it could end as very limited and not pleasing experience. Such client/app is hell of a work for such small team. WWW means universal.


I don't often care when there's news about facebook, but I think their experience sums up what I feel about Kaya.

http://techcrunch.com/2012/09/11/mark-z ... -on-html5/

You just can't beat native...

To your question, I would do a Java client, an android client, and an iPhone app. If you're using reasonable APIs, it's not too difficult.

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 Post subject: Re: Good job guys!
Post #89 Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 12:29 pm 
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oren wrote:
You just can't beat native...


This is absolutely true for mobiles. I don't think anyone doubts that.

A client for desktop environments would make no sense whatsoever though. I can't think of a single advantage it'd bring; lots of inconveniences though.

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 Post subject: Re: Good job guys!
Post #90 Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 12:32 pm 
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Xa17u wrote:
[
A client for desktop environments would make no sense whatsoever though. I can't think of a single advantage it'd bring; lots of inconveniences though.


I've seen a few browser issues, and it seems like the UI suffers a bit. I would prefer Java client such as gGo or KGS over what Kaya currently has.

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Post #91 Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:31 pm 
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Xa17u wrote:
oren wrote:
You just can't beat native...


This is absolutely true for mobiles. I don't think anyone doubts that.

A client for desktop environments would make no sense whatsoever though. I can't think of a single advantage it'd bring; lots of inconveniences though.
I find it gets messy when you use your browser for Kaya and everything else on the internet. Plus, starting a new game in Kaya opens in a new window, and I don't like having multiple windows open on my browser, while i'm doing other things on the net as well. It gets far to messy and irritating. It's much easier to organise with a separate application on the desktop rather than integrate it into another one. If that makes sense.

Also on a Mac, flicking between applications is easy - for example I can flick between Safari and CGoban instantly. I can't do that with Kaya, because it's in Safari.

All I'm saying is that it should be there as an option. If Kaya wishes to replace existing servers it needs to allow maximum choice for its users, in order to draw in a large player base from other servers.

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 Post subject: Re: Good job guys!
Post #92 Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:52 pm 
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Annihilist wrote:
[..]

Also on a Mac, flicking between applications is easy - for example I can flick between Safari and CGoban instantly. I can't do that with Kaya, because it's in Safari.

[..]
I don’t know how you work your Mac, but on my Mac, using Chrome, Kaya just opens a new tab, and switching to that tab with ctrl+tab is just as easy as the App Switcher cmd+tab, I can also use cmd+[1..9] for selecting tabs 1-8 or the last tab. With Safari it’s also ctrl+tab, as with Firefox. Whether Web pages open a new window or just a new tab is an option one can change in the respective preferences.

Or you could just open Kaya in its own window and switch using cmd+> or cmd+< (if you’ve checked these in System Preferences > Keyboard > Keyboard Shortcuts > Keyboard & Text Input: Move focus to the next window).

<shrug> just a few ideas from a fellow Mac user & veteran.

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 Post subject: Re: Good job guys!
Post #93 Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:39 pm 
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Bonobo wrote:
Annihilist wrote:
[..]

Also on a Mac, flicking between applications is easy - for example I can flick between Safari and CGoban instantly. I can't do that with Kaya, because it's in Safari.

[..]
I don’t know how you work your Mac, but on my Mac, using Chrome, Kaya just opens a new tab, and switching to that tab with ctrl+tab is just as easy as the App Switcher cmd+tab, I can also use cmd+[1..9] for selecting tabs 1-8 or the last tab. With Safari it’s also ctrl+tab, as with Firefox. Whether Web pages open a new window or just a new tab is an option one can change in the respective preferences.

Or you could just open Kaya in its own window and switch using cmd+> or cmd+< (if you’ve checked these in System Preferences > Keyboard > Keyboard Shortcuts > Keyboard & Text Input: Move focus to the next window).

<shrug> just a few ideas from a fellow Mac user & veteran.
I guess that's Chrome, which I don't use. Not sure how to change it to tabs, I could look into it. But that aside, I think mingling it with your browser can be irritating at times if you're multitasking - it is for me, and maybe it's just my (lack of) proficiency at multitasking in general.* Nevertheless, I see zero harm in releasing a desktop client as an alternative for those who would prefer it. Adding an extra choice, without altering the existing ones, can do only good to the server.

(*And also, it is wise marketing to cater for as many people as possible, including the morons like myself who can't deal with too many browser windows/tabs. Hence, adding extra choices is always a positive thing for both the user and the marketer.)

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 Post subject: Re: Good job guys!
Post #94 Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:44 pm 
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Separating the browser into kaya tabs, and other tabs would resolve the problem you're describing.

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Post #95 Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:51 pm 
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Xa17u wrote:
Separating the browser into kaya tabs, and other tabs would resolve the problem you're describing.
That's not my point. I'd just prefer not to mix my Kaya pages with my browser pages. I'd prefer them to be separate. And I don't see a reason why there shouldn't be an option to download a client if I prefer.

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Post #96 Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:08 am 
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Annihilist wrote:
proficiency at multitasking in general.* Nevertheless, I see zero harm in releasing a desktop client as an alternative for those who would prefer it.


The "harm" is opportunity. The cost of creating another client in a different technology would increase their development burden by about 50%, and that's assuming they know the technology of the new client. In practice, they'd probably have to more or less freeze their server development, because to manage two clients with a shifting server would be a tough ask for any software company, requiring some serious planning and coordination, which is probably not appropriate for the small team involved at the moment.


Last edited by quantumf on Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Good job guys!
Post #97 Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:11 am 
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quantumf wrote:
Annihilist wrote:
proficiency at multitasking in general.* Nevertheless, I see zero harm in releasing a desktop client as an alternative for those who would prefer it.


The "harm" is opportunity. The cost of creating another client in a different technology would increase their development burden by at about 50%, and that's assuming they know the technology of the new client. In practice, they'd probably have to more or less freeze their server development, because to manage two clients with a shifting server would be a tough ask for any software company, requiring some serious planning and coordination, which is probably not appropriate for the small team involved at the moment.
I guess I overlooked the technical side of it. It should still be laid out as a possibility if it becomes more achievable at some point.

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Post #98 Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:17 am 
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Annihilist wrote:
I guess I overlooked the technical side of it. It should still be laid out as a possibility if it becomes more achievable at some point.


Definitely - once the server becomes stable, they may consider it. As you no doubt know, Tygem and KGS have released mobile clients. They have at least two advantages, tho - the server is stable and more or less feature complete, AND they have a well established client base and this high degree of certainty that many of them will start using the mobile client. Kaya are taking a risk already, and shouldn't add to it at this point.

Interestingly, they've chosen HTML5 as their cross platform solution. That of course was the plan with KGS and Java, which didn't pan out as well as they would have hoped. I wonder how HTML5 will work out in, say, five years from now?

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Post #99 Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 5:39 am 
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Well, once they have something that works they could do something like this:

http://www.quora.com/HTML5/How-can-I-pa ... executable


I for one would also prefer a standalone application. I have too many open tabs in my browser as it is. :)

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Post #100 Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 5:55 am 
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For everyone after a desktop application to separate kaya from other browser tasks, why not just download another browser (e.g. Chrome, if you use Safari), set your homepage to kaya, and go from there? It's probably even easy to hide all the unnecessary UI stuff, especially in Chrome which I vaguely remember made this a feature on launch. You could also open a second browser window in your main browser and confine kaya to it - that's what I do.

Obviously this is slightly more heavyweight than a dedicated application (or a simple webkit frame) would be, but it seems nice and flexible - you even have the choice of tabs vs windows etc.


Last edited by amnal on Mon Oct 29, 2012 6:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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