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Would you invest money?
Yes 8%  8%  [ 3 ]
No 92%  92%  [ 35 ]
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 Post subject: Re: Raising money to 'Open-Source' kaya.gs
Post #21 Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 10:55 pm 
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if we start another server...can kaya be successful?
go community is very limited.
i am already a member of 6 different server.
do you think having another server is what we need?

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 Post subject: Re: Raising money to 'Open-Source' kaya.gs
Post #22 Posted: Sat May 04, 2013 1:31 am 
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Magicwand wrote:
if we start another server...can kaya be successful?
go community is very limited.
i am already a member of 6 different server.
do you think having another server is what we need?

I was not talking about another server. I was talking about making kaya the server that it should be with lots of players enjoying to play there.

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 Post subject: Re: Raising money to 'Open-Source' kaya.gs
Post #23 Posted: Sat May 04, 2013 12:43 pm 
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SpongeBob wrote:
Bantari wrote:
Try contributing here:
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=566

Yeah, right - the last post in this thread is three years old and http://www.owgs.org/ points to nowhere.


The code is still online, though, and it was last updated 8 months ago: https://github.com/Tecuya/owgs

Somebody also mentioned http://govsgo.com/ in the original Kaya announcement thread from almost 2 years ago. That site looks to be up and running and the code is online too: https://github.com/ryanb/govsgo and was last updated 2 months ago.


This post by PaperTiger was liked by: SpongeBob
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 Post subject: Re: Raising money to 'Open-Source' kaya.gs
Post #24 Posted: Sat May 04, 2013 12:50 pm 
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SpongeBob wrote:
Magicwand wrote:
if we start another server...can kaya be successful?
go community is very limited.
i am already a member of 6 different server.
do you think having another server is what we need?

I was not talking about another server. I was talking about making kaya the server that it should be with lots of players enjoying to play there.


Respectfully, you can have the perfect server in terms of coding, but if nobody uses it then it is useless, hence Magicwand's question.

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 Post subject: Re: Raising money to 'Open-Source' kaya.gs
Post #25 Posted: Sat May 04, 2013 12:57 pm 
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PaperTiger wrote:
SpongeBob wrote:
Bantari wrote:
Try contributing here:
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=566

Yeah, right - the last post in this thread is three years old and http://www.owgs.org/ points to nowhere.


The code is still online, though, and it was last updated 8 months ago: https://github.com/Tecuya/owgs

Somebody also mentioned http://govsgo.com/ in the original Kaya announcement thread from almost 2 years ago. That site looks to be up and running and the code is online too: https://github.com/ryanb/govsgo and was last updated 2 months ago.


So there you have it!
Thanks, PaperTiger.

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 Post subject: Re: Raising money to 'Open-Source' kaya.gs
Post #26 Posted: Sat May 04, 2013 2:41 pm 
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Javaness2 wrote:
Respectfully, you can have the perfect server in terms of coding, but if nobody uses it then it is useless, hence Magicwand's question.

Ah, I see - thanks. :)

There was a lot of hype around kaya - and I think for a reason: people were looking for a modern UI, features like Fisher timing, voice countdown and a Tygem-like lag handling. With all that, many users would switch over from KGS, I am sure.

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 Post subject: Re: Raising money to 'Open-Source' kaya.gs
Post #27 Posted: Sat May 04, 2013 11:00 pm 
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SpongeBob wrote:
Javaness2 wrote:
Respectfully, you can have the perfect server in terms of coding, but if nobody uses it then it is useless, hence Magicwand's question.

Ah, I see - thanks. :)

There was a lot of hype around kaya - and I think for a reason: people were looking for a modern UI, features like Fisher timing, voice countdown and a Tygem-like lag handling. With all that, many users would switch over from KGS, I am sure.


I would not. KGS is best because it has largest English language speaking go playing society. And has sufficient features for chit chat. So that will guarantee that it will stand whatever competition for quite long.

Out things you mention lag handling is only one of any interest. On modernity: people play on Wbaduk so being very old fashioned does not seem to hurt....

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 Post subject: Re: Raising money to 'Open-Source' kaya.gs
Post #28 Posted: Sun May 05, 2013 12:53 am 
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Bantari wrote:
PS>
Didn't they have some open-source server projects out there? I seem to remember something like that a while back... where did that go?


Maybe it was UGS? There's 20 people willing to work on it, so it should be off the ground in no time!

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 Post subject: Re: Raising money to 'Open-Source' kaya.gs
Post #29 Posted: Mon May 06, 2013 8:43 pm 
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Development separated from administration.

Maybe what we need is not to create a better go server and compete with existing servers but to develop a opensource go server framework that is easy to customize and have existing ageing go servers switch to it or go associations run it. Better mousetrap and all ...

I think the point should be to improve on-line go playing experience overall.

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 Post subject: Re: Raising money to 'Open-Source' kaya.gs
Post #30 Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 8:17 pm 
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The OP's intentions are good, however provided with funds, those should go directly into the development for Kaya, either by our hands or independent developers.
All and any funding of the project should go into helping Kaya be a better server as it's always been.

Right from the start open sourcing was always an option we considered. It is part of my vision for a server to be constantly evolving and improving, and Open sourcing the server might be the solution to achieve and continue that independent of my capacity and ability.

OpenKaya is proof of our intentions to have an open platform, where many people contributed libraries and utilities used on the server, like the rating system, scoring and estimator algorithms, time systems and more. We have built APIs that collaborate with external sites as well.

Open source means that anyone has the capacity to read code in a platform they use or consume. It doesn't mean that an open source venture is absolutely free or that people working it are doing it for free.

What other uses code readers can do on open sourced code is mainly dependent on licenses.

Also, it does not mean that any programmer can perform a code change and see the effects on the server as he pleases: it has to go through a controller that verifies that there is no malicious code, bugs or simply detrimental to the service in one way or another.

I was the code controller in Open Kaya, providing coordination, assistance, testing and doing hard-code contributions, and would gladly be so for any other part of Kaya that gets open sourced.

Open-sourcing however is not a silver bullet. There are other go servers right now that are actually open source and they don't get a swarm of contributors. Kaya has a much better position to pull this one off though.

However there are consequences. Once the code is open, potential security or usage exploits become a lot easier to find. Ideally, those that find the issues contribute to fixing them, either by reporting them or by performing the fixes themselves. With malicious intent, provoking issues could be very detrimental, causing downtime or other plethora of issues.
This means that we have to be able to respond to such issues in a timely fashion to protect our users.

Its also a commitment on our part to document and assist the community into contributing. OpenKaya is worked that way, but the server and the full client require a much higher level of commitment on our part and also on a potential contributor.

In a regular programming job, its not uncommon to spend the first 2 days working over the local environment to set it up.

It is in my best interest to create a community of contributors around Kaya, that is the guarantee that im interested and open-minded about this topic.
To make an open source initiative effective, we need to be very well organized and prepare ourselves for it, making an informed and very conscious decision.

There are so many fronts and covert-ops projects on Kaya and it has many features ready to explode on the client, provided with more development power.

------ OT -------

At one time we toyed with the idea of making a Feature market. So ideas could be taken from uservoice and posted there, and estimated in cost. Then people could directly fund a feature they wanted.

The idea seemed hard to make and mantain so we dropped it :)

----- OT 2 -----

Kaya now has also Ayabot!
And we actually made a release today, related to a much better translation support.

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 Post subject: Re: Raising money to 'Open-Source' kaya.gs
Post #31 Posted: Fri May 17, 2013 4:25 am 
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Question --- Why are you assuming that becoming "open source" would address the problem of lack of development of what users want?

With volunteer open source projects, what gets worked on depends on what the volunteer programmers decide to work on, what interests them.

Don't get me wrong, I am all in favor of open source projects but this is one aspect of the difference between "for profit" software and "open source" volunteer software where the "for profit" might have an edge. If somebody is paying me to develop software, they get to decide what I work on (*) which might not be what I'd most like to work on because more interesting. But if I am volunteering, no such leverage.

* -- well in my case the leverage would be minimal as I am retired and would only agree to come back into the cypher mines if I thought the project interesting. I don't need the money.

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 Post subject: Re: Raising money to 'Open-Source' kaya.gs
Post #32 Posted: Fri May 17, 2013 7:13 am 
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Mike Novack wrote:
Question --- Why are you assuming that becoming "open source" would address the problem of lack of development of what users want?

With volunteer open source projects, what gets worked on depends on what the volunteer programmers decide to work on, what interests them.

Don't get me wrong, I am all in favor of open source projects but this is one aspect of the difference between "for profit" software and "open source" volunteer software where the "for profit" might have an edge. If somebody is paying me to develop software, they get to decide what I work on (*) which might not be what I'd most like to work on because more interesting. But if I am volunteering, no such leverage.

* -- well in my case the leverage would be minimal as I am retired and would only agree to come back into the cypher mines if I thought the project interesting. I don't need the money.


Its an intersection. On OpenKaya, pretty much all collaborators did what they wanted, from their very own ideas, filtered by what is possible or desirable.

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 Post subject: Re: Raising money to 'Open-Source' kaya.gs
Post #33 Posted: Fri May 17, 2013 9:58 am 
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Cool!

So, if Kaya is open to open-source itself, and even to control itself, there remain two questions:
1. For how much? and
2. Are there competent people out there willing to seriously work on it? For free?

There are other, less urgent questions as well, but the above two are really important before anybody starts raising funds and dreaming pretty.

@Mike:
I agree with you that open sourcing does not guarantee that the features users want will actually be developed. Its a very good point. In the long run, it might require direction and a person doing the directing. Which brings two issues: (a) how much ownership will this person have, and (b) how open will this person be to community needs. Especially (b) can be an problem.

@Kaya:
Your point about intersection is a good one too, but it assumes a plentitude of contributors with enough different ideas so that most desirable features get implemented. This is a very big assumption. In case of Kaya, I really don't see that happening, but I might be wrong. It all depends on the answer to my question #2 above.

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 Post subject: Re: Raising money to 'Open-Source' kaya.gs
Post #34 Posted: Fri May 17, 2013 1:00 pm 
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Bantari wrote:
Cool!
In the long run, it might require direction and a person doing the directing. Which brings two issues: (a) how much ownership will this person have, and (b) how open will this person be to community needs. Especially (b) can be an problem.


Close but no cigar. You almost understand the problem but don't quite grasp it.

With volunteers, they have to want to work on some particular aspect of the project. Look, some software is fun and other parts, however important ot necessary or desired by users just plain boring or tedious. And there are some of us who were very experienced in the real world and will simply refuse to take on a user requested project (me, for example) unless the users are willing to commit to their part of it (and yes, there jobs for users from a detailed "requirements" statement* all the way through testing). I've been on "help" for a number of open software apps and typically the users say they want something but very rarely will commit for their part of the job.

The point I am making is that in the "real world" the boss (management) can give orders "you do that" and "that" gets worked on because that's what your pay check depends upon. But you simply can't order volunteers around like that.


* If there is no such detailed definition of what a program is supposed to do under any an all circumstances then whatever it does is "correct" provided the program doesn't hang or loop. Understand? As a software designer I can't read the user's mind for what they expect. In the real world that detailed design phase might be 20% of the total time commitment for the project.

This is essentially a misunderstanding of roles. As an experienced analyst, I know how to sit down with users and from the rough description of what they say they want keep asking questions like "but what about in this case" until the functionality is fully defined. Keep in mind that as a rule of thumb 80% of the code will be dealing with all these rare situations that the users didn't envision but which must be handled properly. Imagine how frustrating for one of us to (first) create what the users said they wanted and then having the users keep complaining "wrong!" over and over till all of those loose ends get tied up.

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 Post subject: Re: Raising money to 'Open-Source' kaya.gs
Post #35 Posted: Fri May 17, 2013 1:25 pm 
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Mike Novack wrote:
Bantari wrote:
Cool!
In the long run, it might require direction and a person doing the directing. Which brings two issues: (a) how much ownership will this person have, and (b) how open will this person be to community needs. Especially (b) can be an problem.


Close but no cigar. You almost understand the problem but don't quite grasp it.

With volunteers, they have to want to work on some particular aspect of the project. Look, some software is fun and other parts, however important ot necessary or desired by users just plain boring or tedious. And there are some of us who were very experienced in the real world and will simply refuse to take on a user requested project (me, for example) unless the users are willing to commit to their part of it (and yes, there jobs for users from a detailed "requirements" statement* all the way through testing). I've been on "help" for a number of open software apps and typically the users say they want something but very rarely will commit for their part of the job.

The point I am making is that in the "real world" the boss (management) can give orders "you do that" and "that" gets worked on because that's what your pay check depends upon. But you simply can't order volunteers around like that.


* If there is no such detailed definition of what a program is supposed to do under any an all circumstances then whatever it does is "correct" provided the program doesn't hang or loop. Understand? As a software designer I can't read the user's mind for what they expect. In the real world that detailed design phase might be 20% of the total time commitment for the project.

This is essentially a misunderstanding of roles. As an experienced analyst, I know how to sit down with users and from the rough description of what they say they want keep asking questions like "but what about in this case" until the functionality is fully defined. Keep in mind that as a rule of thumb 80% of the code will be dealing with all these rare situations that the users didn't envision but which must be handled properly. Imagine how frustrating for one of us to (first) create what the users said they wanted and then having the users keep complaining "wrong!" over and over till all of those loose ends get tied up.


So you are basically saying that (and correct me if I am wrong, I am just speaking from my limited experience in open-source projects),

1) no matter how much the director directs, you can't just order volunteers around - they will still only work on what they want to work on, regardless of what is actually needed? and if you try to force them to work on other stuff, they just walk... (I know, I walked myself once or twice for such reasons, although I really did never think of it quite like that from the leader's perspective)

2) no matter how much the director listens to the public, it is not at all given that the public actually has a precise understanding of what it wants? so they scream for something just to keep screaming they want it differently once you finally implement it, making the whole process frustrating... (I had a LOT of this happen to me on each project I worked on, even though the shareholder base was very limited, so I can imagine how bad it must be when wide public is involved.)

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 Post subject: Re: Raising money to 'Open-Source' kaya.gs
Post #36 Posted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 6:15 pm 
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Bantari wrote:
So you are basically saying that (and correct me if I am wrong, I am just speaking from my limited experience in open-source projects),

1) no matter how much the director directs, you can't just order volunteers around - they will still only work on what they want to work on, regardless of what is actually needed? and if you try to force them to work on other stuff, they just walk... (I know, I walked myself once or twice for such reasons, although I really did never think of it quite like that from the leader's perspective)

2) no matter how much the director listens to the public, it is not at all given that the public actually has a precise understanding of what it wants? so they scream for something just to keep screaming they want it differently once you finally implement it, making the whole process frustrating... (I had a LOT of this happen to me on each project I worked on, even though the shareholder base was very limited, so I can imagine how bad it must be when wide public is involved.)


Frankly the only way to direct a opensource project is by writing code.

People can say they prefer other ways of doing the project but its all hot air compared to functional code.

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 Post subject: Re: Raising money to 'Open-Source' kaya.gs
Post #37 Posted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 10:06 pm 
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Post #38 Posted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 10:24 pm 
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+1.

The tournament function is a feature that attracts players.
So there are games even though there are much less players than at Kaya.gs. Maybe implementing such a function would help kaya to get more ppl playing there.

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