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 Post subject: Re: Uberdude vs. RoseDuke
Post #21 Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 1:23 pm 
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Some comments from Victor



This post by quantumf was liked by 3 people: Bill Spight, daal, Uberdude
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 Post subject: Re: Uberdude vs. RoseDuke
Post #22 Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 3:40 pm 
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Thanks to Victor and quantumf for the comments.

Yeah, seeing n10 on the board again makes it even more obvious that it's essentially game over for white if I get that. It's a bad habit of mine to think I can try to get in some not-really-sente move before the important one. Given how good n10 is, I think his p8 should perhaps take a liberty at n8, even if it does mean he doesn't get to p8 kikashi first. Would I then continue at n10 anyway, or m10, or tenuki?

About c7 for 119, whilst that might be the move that leads to the largest win, I thought as I was ahead I shouldn't give white a chance to make a complex fight as he's better at them than me. I planned to hassle the centre group in sente first to make sure the e12 cut wouldn't put the g11 group in danger (of course c9 is in danger too so black should be able to handle things fine, but I am good at dying in byo yomi) and then think about c9, though in the end his peep made me reinforce at k9 which was not quite as sente as I hoped so he got to fix with e6.

I see he agrees black p19 is not a good plan, just s9, and then d8 is nice indeed.

t14 for 184 is dangerous though: I s12 in sente and then t4 throw in and he can't answer or t7 kills the big group (as n14 falisfies that eye and I don't see a way for him to turn that half eye into a real eye in sente, did I miss one?).

Good point about c10, I did think about that at some point in the sequence but missed it in the blind panic at that point.

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 Post subject: Re: Uberdude vs. RoseDuke
Post #23 Posted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 6:43 pm 
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For oca, attach workshop:

Let's take a look at some example of attachments, or not attachments, from this game:

- move 9, don't attach at r5 as then white would get q5 in sente and get strong. I'm gently attacking and building lower side.
- move 11, don't attach (or more like push) at q6 as that helps white get stronger (is another not-so-common joseki though), again because I am attacking, from a distance
- move 15, stops white attaching here to make eyes.
- move 19, stops white attaching here to make shape.
- move 25, attaches, because I want to defend r11 group. It makes white r14 stronger, but I am on defense not attack now.
- move 47, stops white attaching at m4 and crosscut funny business.
- move 51, attach at h4 is another choice, but I am attacking so don't want to attach and help him get stronger
- move 52, he attaches because in my strong area and he wants to defend.
- move 58, another attach for making defensive shape
- move 82, attach when defending and to get out to centre
- move 98, attach for defending (but not good says Victor)
- move 130, attach to defend group and also pressure black shape a bit too


This post by Uberdude was liked by: oca
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 Post subject: Re: Uberdude vs. RoseDuke
Post #24 Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 4:09 am 
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Uberdude wrote:
For oca, attach workshop:
...


Let's take a look at some example of attachments, or not attachments, from this game:

- move 9, don't attach at r5 as then white would get q5 in sente and get strong. I'm gently attacking and building lower side.
I suppose I would have played :b9: at R4 but your move at Q5 also help the two other stones so it is better then my first guess

- move 11, don't attach (or more like push) at q6 as that helps white get stronger (is another not-so-common joseki though), again because I am attacking, from a distance
and what about attaching at R7 ? to build both the right side and the bottom ? too ambitious ?

- move 15, stops white attaching here to make eyes.
ok I see

- move 19, stops white attaching here to make shape.
I suppose the peep at P7 to make white heavy is not a good idea here as black shape would be too weak

- move 25, attaches, because I want to defend r11 group. It makes white r14 stronger, but I am on defense not attack now.
ok, I suppose I would have played S15 here, O17 is maybe not severe enough

- move 47, stops white attaching at m4 and crosscut funny business.
oh... nice

- move 51, attach at h4 is another choice, but I am attacking so don't want to attach and help him get stronger
ok, I suppose my choice would be that H4 here

- move 52, he attaches because in my strong area and he wants to defend.
- move 58, another attach for making defensive shape
ok that also threaten to connect if I undertsand well, I like the double hane at :b59:

- move 82, attach when defending and to get out to centre
ok

- move 98, attach for defending (but not good says Victor)
That's intersting, very not easy for me here... I always die in situiations like that one ;)

- move 130, attach to defend group and also pressure black shape a bit too

ok thank you very much for that workshop!

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 Post subject: Re: Uberdude vs. RoseDuke
Post #25 Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 5:30 am 
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about move 11 at r7, it's no good because when white split your stone has not many liberties, and you want to help both of the black stones with only 3 liberties but you can't play in two places at once, so it's better one space away. An example of forcing white to run through a small gap, which means he hurts to both sides. Classic broken shape keima shape.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . |
$$ . . . 1 . . |
$$ . . 2 O . . |
$$ . . X . . . |
$$ . . , . O . |
$$ . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . |
$$ ------------+[/go]


move 19 p7 peep is bad as it makes white stronger. White would like to go into the bottom side like this, but then black's wedge is a strong counter and white is in trouble. Peep would lose this chance to wedge.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 0 X X . . |
$$ . . . . . 8 3 5 . X . |
$$ . . . . 9 O 2 O O O . |
$$ . . . . 7 6 4 X X O . |
$$ . X . . 1 . . , . O . |
$$ . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------+[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Uberdude vs. RoseDuke
Post #26 Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 5:58 am 
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Uberdude wrote:
about move 11 at r7, it's no good because when white split your stone has not many liberties, and you want to help both of the black stones with only 3 liberties but you can't play in two places at once, so it's better one space away. An example of forcing white to run through a small gap, which means he hurts to both sides. Classic broken shape keima shape.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . |
$$ . . . 1 . . |
$$ . . 2 O . . |
$$ . . X . . . |
$$ . . , . O . |
$$ . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . |
$$ ------------+[/go]


ok, thank you, that :b1: idea went into my head inspired by that :b4: attachement bellow that I think is playable
but I agree that they don't have that much (if any) in common...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . 2 . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . 3 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ------------------+[/go]

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Converting the book Shape UP! by Charles Matthews/Seong-June Kim
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 Post subject: Re: Uberdude vs. RoseDuke
Post #27 Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 10:59 am 
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Yes, I thought you were inspired by that attachment, you seem a little obsessed with it :) It's probably worth saying that that attachment is a fairly recent Korean joseki innovation that goes against natural style and would get you strange looks if you played it a few decades ago.

Let's look at why it is different. First the extension which was a good move in my game is a bad move now: it doesn't take any liberties from the marked 4-4 stone so black can just help the other one. In fact the 4-4 is on a good shape point and means black can hane and connect in sente to cut. Notice that helping the attachment stone doesn't hurt the 4-4 stone because it is further away.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . 2 . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . B . 3 . |
$$ . . . . . . . 7 . |
$$ . . . . . 5 1 6 . |
$$ . . . . . . 4 8 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . , . . . |[/go]


In this joseki it's normal to hane on top (under is possible too depending on a ladder) and black extends and then there are several choices for white.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . 2 . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . B . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . 5 4 . . |
$$ . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . , . . . |[/go]


With my game if you hane black can cut and the cutting stone is in no danger because it's connected to the closer marked black stone, so white is in big trouble. (In the attachment joseki cut could maybe be plausible but it's not connected so there'd be some crazy fighting).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . |
$$ . . 2 1 . . |
$$ . . 3 O . . |
$$ . . B . . . |
$$ . . , . O . |
$$ . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . |
$$ ------------+[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Uberdude vs. RoseDuke
Post #28 Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 12:17 pm 
Judan

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It is worth noting that :b4: here

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . 2 . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . 3 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


is not a recent innovation. The Suzuki-Kitani Small Joseki Dictionary devotes 9 variations to it, so it goes back at least 50 years. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Uberdude vs. RoseDuke
Post #29 Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 3:07 pm 
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Bill Spight wrote:
is not a recent innovation. The Suzuki-Kitani Small Joseki Dictionary devotes 9 variations to it, so it goes back at least 50 years. :)


Well, I did check GoGoD before posting and there are about half a dozen occurrences before the 1990s, and most of those aren't in open play, and almost a thousand since. So maybe it was in a joseki dictionary, but it didn't pass the test of being used much in actual play. :scratch:

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 Post subject: Re: Uberdude vs. RoseDuke
Post #30 Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 6:38 pm 
Judan

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Uberdude wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
is not a recent innovation. The Suzuki-Kitani Small Joseki Dictionary devotes 9 variations to it, so it goes back at least 50 years. :)


Well, I did check GoGoD before posting and there are about half a dozen occurrences before the 1990s, and most of those aren't in open play, and almost a thousand since. So maybe it was in a joseki dictionary, but it didn't pass the test of being used much in actual play. :scratch:


Well, a couple of variations were said to be equal exchanges, but none were called joseki or common patterns. So it was certainly the Koreans who developed it in recent times. (But I played it a few times myself in the 1970s. :mrgreen: )

I suppose that there are rather more variations in Suzuki's great work, the Igo Daijiten. It just goes to show the thoroughness of Suzuki and his researchers. :)

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