It is currently Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:20 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 8 posts ] 
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Handling of "no-result" game in a tournament?
Post #1 Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 10:45 am 
Dies with sente

Posts: 75
Liked others: 7
Was liked: 18
Rank: EGF 5k
KGS: jug
DGS: jug, 4k
Hi,

assume there's a round-robin tournament with 5 players playing in one pool, so that each play with each other simultaneously (e.g. on a turn-based server). If you win a players gains 1 point, on jigo both players gain 0.5 points, a loss is no points. In the end the player with the most points wins the tournament (let's forget about tie-breakers for simplicity).

Then one game ends with "no-result" (let's assume the rules wouldn't prevent that). Now normally one solution is to let the game be replayed, but let's say this is not possible due to time-constraints of the tournament and you have to count this games somehow.

What would the fairest / best possibility to do that in relation to the possible point-situation of the other players?
... both players win/lose, or treat it as jigo, or give both players a win? ... or could you do something differently entirely in the tournament-setup?

Any thoughts ?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Handling of "no-result" game in a tournament?
Post #2 Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 11:40 am 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1585
Location: Barcelona, Spain (GMT+1)
Liked others: 577
Was liked: 298
Rank: KGS 5k
KGS: RBerenguel
Tygem: rberenguel
Wbaduk: JohnKeats
Kaya handle: RBerenguel
Online playing schedule: KGS on Saturday I use to be online, but I can be if needed from 20-23 GMT+1
I guess the only sane thing is either to choose between jigo (like in chess and zugzwang situations) or a loss for both players (since neither of them won... Of course, neither of them lost either)

_________________
Geek of all trades, master of none: the motto for my blog mostlymaths.net

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Handling of "no-result" game in a tournament?
Post #3 Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 1:19 pm 
Oza

Posts: 2182
Location: ʍoquıɐɹ ǝɥʇ ɹǝʌo 'ǝɹǝɥʍǝɯos
Liked others: 237
Was liked: 659
Rank: AGA 5d
GD Posts: 4312
Online playing schedule: Every tenth February 29th from 20:00-20:01 (if time permits)
I don't think there is really any choice. Nether player won, so neither deserves credit for a win. Neither player lost, no neither deserve credit for that either. Half a win each is the only rational outcome.

_________________
Still officially AGA 5d but I play so irregularly these days that I am probably only 3d or 4d over the board (but hopefully still 5d in terms of knowledge, theory and the ability to contribute).

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Handling of "no-result" game in a tournament?
Post #4 Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 2:51 pm 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 773
Location: Michigan, USA
Liked others: 143
Was liked: 217
Rank: KGS 1 kyu
Universal go server handle: moyoaji
I thought "no result" matches (triple-ko, eternal life, etc.) were the modern-day equivalent to jigo since komi always has either a half-point attached or states that one player wins ties (Ing rules have 8 point komi where black wins ties, basically the same as 7.5 komi).

I understand that "no result" is not the same as a tie, but it seems about as close as you can get with modern rules.

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Handling of "no-result" game in a tournament?
Post #5 Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:26 pm 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2165
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Liked others: 2013
Was liked: 1223
Rank: Jp 6 dan
KGS: ez4u
jug wrote:
Hi,

assume there's a round-robin tournament with 5 players playing in one pool, so that each play with each other simultaneously (e.g. on a turn-based server). If you win a players gains 1 point, on jigo both players gain 0.5 points, a loss is no points. In the end the player with the most points wins the tournament (let's forget about tie-breakers for simplicity).

Then one game ends with "no-result" (let's assume the rules wouldn't prevent that). Now normally one solution is to let the game be replayed, but let's say this is not possible due to time-constraints of the tournament and you have to count this games somehow.

What would the fairest / best possibility to do that in relation to the possible point-situation of the other players?
... both players win/lose, or treat it as jigo, or give both players a win? ... or could you do something differently entirely in the tournament-setup?

Any thoughts ?

No-result is just what it says - no result. Your league is unfinished. Most of all, no-result is not a tie game. Of course you can get around the problem by suddenly declaring it a draw, but that smells a bit bad if you are imposing that decision on the players.

You do not have time to just replay the game. So what to do instead? One choice is to play a new game at a faster time control if the players are able to do so. That is what happened in last year's Ryusei-sen in Japan. When the finals ended in a triple ko, Yamashita and Kono Rin played a second game without the ten minutes of extra thinking time.

But before deciding anything it is worth asking, "So what?" Is the missing game going to decide the tournament? Is it going to affect prizes? Or is it just about bragging rights?

_________________
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Handling of "no-result" game in a tournament?
Post #6 Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 10:14 pm 
Tengen

Posts: 4803
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 649
A tournament should specify the tournament rules for handling a No Result before the start of the tournament. Otherwise, some rather arbitrary decision needs to be made after an incident. Options are: treat like a jigo, replay (with possibly shorter times), interpret the tournament outcome with specifications how to evaluate No Result in relation to other game results. If a replay is chosen and the players create a series of arbitrarily many No Result games, then uh admit your failure as a tournament organiser.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Handling of "no-result" game in a tournament?
Post #7 Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 3:17 am 
Dies with sente

Posts: 75
Liked others: 7
Was liked: 18
Rank: EGF 5k
KGS: jug
DGS: jug, 4k
Well, the background for my question is, that I'm currently implementing round-robin/pooled-tournaments for the Dragon Go Server and wanted to explore what actions a tournament-director could need in cases like "no-result".
Setting Jigo or awarding no points to the players is easy to do.

However, replaying a game is much more difficult to incorporate ... I wonder how tournament-software out there is handling this?

On a turn-based server where games can take months, a replay may not be the best way, though it would be worth a thought adding at least some functionality to allow a "replay" by means of the regular game-interface and adding some extra-points/results manually (to keep it simple at first).
After all the outcome of a game with no-result is not such a common occurrence anyway. Has this happened in some live-tournament (some large McMahon for example) and if so, how was it handled?

Thanks for the input so far.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Handling of "no-result" game in a tournament?
Post #8 Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 3:41 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 260
Liked others: 3
Was liked: 38
Rank: 5 dan
In the European Go Congress 2012 in a game I was careless and let my opponent to save his group by triple ko. I counted the the situation and decided that I can win without the it. I think if we would have finished the game as triple ko and no result, I would have been disappointed, if I had scored no points having played 5 hours.

Suppose you set a rule that no result is counted as jigo. This is reasonably fair. However, if this is announced in advance players might decide that thay want a jigo from their game and aim for no result. If you accept this, then everything works.

If you prefer the players to have a result, then you should make them play another game with shorter times. If games usually take months, I expect that the replay could be finished within a week, if players anticipate the rematch. If the players fail to play the rematch, then give points according to how good effort they made to play the game. The points should add up no more than one win, but may add up less. You might also state that no result from rematch give no points to players or possibly 1/4 point each.

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 8 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group