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 Post subject: KOTH Rules and Questions
Post #1 Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:12 pm 
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The basic idea of king of the hill is very simple: there is a hill with several levels. Only one person can occupy the top level - that is the king. Everybody who participates starts at the bottom. To move up, you must beat someone at a game of go.

-------------------------------

THERE ARE FOUR LEVELS:

1) King
2) Assassins ( the only players who get a shot at the king )
3) Contenders
4) The Mob ( The bottom of the hill. Everybody starts here. )

There is no limit to the number of people who can be on any of the three lower levels. There is, of course, only one king.

--------------------------------
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REGISTRATION:

To register, a player posts his KGS playing schedule, KGS name, and KGS rank in the membership thread.

- Anybody can join. All you need is a KGS account.
- A schedule should be a weekly schedule, indicating when you can play. See notes below for details.
- Your KGS name should be the account you use most often, or the one that reflects your true strength.
- You can only register once, regardless of how many KGS accounts you may have.

--------------------------------

THERE ARE FIVE THREADS:

1) Rules & questions - You are reading this thread now
2) Membership - One post per member ( First post will include an index so you don't have to search much )
3) Challenges - One of the two threads that you have to read regularly.
4) Results - The results of games are posted here.
5) Announcements & status - The other thread that you should look at when posts are added.

The normal cycle of use is:

1) Read the rules thread
2) Post once in the membership thread.
3) Challenge somone by posting in the challenges thread or read it regularly to see if someone challenges you.
4) Play the game on KGS
5) Post the result in the results thread (if you won).
6) Go back to step #3

-------------------------------

GAMES:

1) All games are played in the L19 room on KGS.
2) The defender gets to choose time controls. ( See notes for details )
3) If the challenger is the lower ranked player, or of equal rank, there is no handicap.
4) If the defender is of lower rank, he gets the appropriate handicap.
5) White gets 7.5 komi.
6) If the king is playing, rule #3 does not apply, and the appropriate handicap is used.

-------------------------------

CHALLENGING:

- Challenges must be made against someone on your level. ( Unless you are an assassin going after the king. ) Please use their L19 name when issuing a challenge, as not all observers will know them by their KGS name.

- A challenge must include the opponent's name and a time. The time must be chosen from the defender's posted schedule. The chosen time must be at least four days ( 96 hours ) in the future. The time does not need to match the challenger's schedule.

- The challenge must be posted in the challenge thread. An email to the defendant is chivalrous, but not required.

- You can only challenge someone who has a posted playing schedule with the same or Fewer total hours per week. ( When counting hours, anything over 50 hours per week is considered equal to 50 )

- If the player who you wish to challenge has an active challenge - either as challenger or as defendant - you must allow at least 24 hours between starting times.

- To challenge the king, assassins must have at least one win over another assassin during their current visit to that level.

--------------------------------

REPLYING TO A CHALLENGE:

- Defenders have three days to accept. Failure to reply to a challenge within those times results in a forfeit.

- An acceptance must be posted in the challenge thread at least 24 hours before the game. ( If the game is played without such a formal acceptance, defender forfeits, even if he wins )

- Defender chooses time controls for the game. Main time can be anything from 1 minute to one hour.

-------------------------------

RESULTS:

When the game is finished, winner is responsible for posting the result - with SGF - in the results thread. Wins don't count unless the winner posts.

Mob: Winner goes up, loser stays.

Contenders: Winner goes up one level, loser goes down one level.

Assassins: Loser goes down to the mob. Winner stays.

Assassin vs king. Loser goes down to the mob. Winner is king.

--------------------------------

CHANGING YOUR SCHEDULE:

- A player's schedule can only be changed when the player is in the mob with no pending games. Once he is on the hill he is stuck with the schedule that he started with. If he has challenged or has been challenged, no schedule changes may be made until that challenge is resolved by a win, a loss, or a forfeit.

- To change your schedule, edit your post in the membership thread.

- Attempting to change your schedule improperly may result in severe penalties from the TD, up to permanent banishment from the hill.

--------------------------------

LEAPING:

Should you find yourself on the assassin or contender levels with an ill-chosen schedule, such that your progress is stymied, leaping to your death is acceptable. Please notify the TD in such instances and you will be reincarnated in the mob.

--------------------------------

NOTES:

1) The perceptive hillperson will notice that the set of rules regarding scheduling lends itself to gamesmanship. This is deliberate. :twisted: Players are allowed to try to arrange the game with the schedule and time controls most favorable to themselves.

You can only challenge someone with the same or lesser total hours per week. The more hours that you make yourself available, the more likely that you will be able to play. In practice, this means that a big schedule can be used as a defense. You may find yourself among competitors who cannot touch you because they cannot challenge you. The downside of this strategy is that a clever challenger may drag you out of bed, leaving you the option of either playing while sleepy or forfeiting.

2) However, once the go game starts, gamesmanship will be heavily frowned upon by the TD. Honorable behavior will be expected. Deliberate miscounting, escaping, taunting the opponent, or other disturbances may lead to a forfeit being imposed by the TD.

3) If a member forfeits too many games, the TD may remove him from the mob. This is entirely at the TD's discretion.

4) Schedules are in chunks of 1 hour or more, using integral hours ( no minutes ). These are the times when you are willing to START the game. If finishing the game takes you outside of your posted schedule, too bad - you should plan ahead.
All times/days are UCT (aka GMT). An example might be:

Monday: 16:00 - 21:00
Tuesday: 3:00 - 5:00
Wednesday: 3:00 - 5:00 / 16:00 - 22:00
Thursday: -
Friday: 16:00 - 21:00
Saturday: 21:00 - 24:00
Sunday: -
Total hours = 23


5) Rank can be arbitrarily changed by the TD if he suspects sandbagging. A short, erratic, or nonexistent KGS rank graph is likely to make the TD suspicious. A record of wins in KOTH games on KGS punctuated by losses in non-KOTH games, such that the KGS rank remains stable, is also likely to make the TD suspicious.

6) Main time can be anything from 1 minute to 1 hour. Byo yomi must be Japanese 5x30. No absolute time.

7) To get things going, there must be a king in place. In the great tradition of despots who appoint themselves to various undeserved offices, I am making myself king. ( I figure that this will provide additional incentive to certain members. :lol: )

8) If deposing me is not enough incentive, I'm offering real-world benefits: the first person to hold the top of the hill for 30 consectutive days gets 100 US dollars wired to the paypal account of his choice from the bulging coffers of L19. ( This means, of course, that if one of you does not depose me within 30 days, I will feel free to embezzle the money. :mrgreen: )

9) Thanks to Inkwolf for the donation of artwork in this post. :bow:

--------------------------------

THEORETICAL MUSINGS:
1) This version of King of the Hill was designed after watching the repeated decline of the yearly L19 tournaments. Those tournaments, despite the enthusiasm of both players and TDs, never were finished. They required, IMHO, too much commitment from players. Lower ranked players went in knowing that they probably did not have much chance. Higher ranked players sometimes had to wait for months to play.

So I was trying to create something that would provide easy entry and exit to all players, and such entries and exits would not significantly disturb other players. I think that I've achieved that.

I was also trying to create better opportunities for lower ranked players. The requirements for handicap under certain conditions should give them a better chance.


2) Also, I believe that one of the reasons that our previous tournaments haven't worked well is the problem of pairing vs scheduling. In the classic F2F tournament, pairing players and scheduling their game were almost the same thing. The times and location of the games were known in advance. When registering for the tournament, a player implicitly agreed to the times and location. So when pairings went up in a F2F tournament, you knew who you would play, and where, and when. ( Smith, board #24, in 5 minutes )

On a forum, we have had the problem that pairing players and scheduling their game are completely disjoint. When the pairing is done, the scheduling the game is still an unsolved problem. ( Smith, L19 room on KGS, ...err...has anybody seen Smith? )

So one of the other goals in creating this was to re-integrate pairing and scheduling. I think that I have succeeded in that. If you get paired, the schedule is known. The down side is that pairing is sometimes inconvenient.


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 Post subject: Re: KOTH Rules and Questions
Post #2 Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 3:11 pm 
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Suppose I make my game 8:00 per person absolute time: is it frowned upon to try to run the opponent's clock to death while significantly behind? I assume it is, but I want to make sure.

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 Post subject: Re: KOTH Rules and Questions
Post #3 Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 3:22 pm 
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Shaddy wrote:
Suppose I make my game 8:00 per person absolute time: is it frowned upon to try to run the opponent's clock to death while significantly behind? I assume it is, but I want to make sure.


It would be severely frowned upon. So much so that I think that I will amend the rules to require some form of byo-yomi.

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Post #4 Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 3:26 pm 
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Shaddy wrote:
Suppose I make my game 8:00 per person absolute time: is it frowned upon to try to run the opponent's clock to death while significantly behind? I assume it is, but I want to make sure.


Should be only Japanese byomi.. So you can't do that. Perhaps 5x 30 seconds byo should be mandatory

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 Post subject: Re: KOTH Rules and Questions
Post #5 Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 3:28 pm 
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NoSkill wrote:
...
Should be only Japanese byomi... Perhaps 5x 30 seconds byo should be mandatory


Good idea. Rules have been changed to reflect that.

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Post #6 Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 3:28 pm 
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Also I think you should forget the time rule for the king, so that an assassin with 50 hours can challenge the king with 100.

Otherwise a 100 hour king would never get challenges

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Post #7 Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 4:58 pm 
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Joaz Banbeck wrote:
The basic idea of king of the hill is very simple: there is a hill with several levels. Only one person can occupy the top level - that is the king. Everybody who participates starts at the bottom. To move up, you must beat someone at a game of go.
...
9) Thanks to Inkwolf for the donation of artwork in this post. :bow:

:tmbup: :tmbup: :tmbup: :tmbup: :tmbup:

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 Post subject: Re: KOTH Rules and Questions
Post #8 Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:05 pm 
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Joaz Banbeck wrote:
...

7) To get things going, there must be a king in place. In the great tradition of despots who appoint themselves to various undeserved offices, I am making myself king. ( I figure that this will provide additional incentive to certain members. :lol: )

...

:tmbdown: :tmbdown: :tmbdown:

It seems to me that it would work at least as well to have the first assassin to win a game become the first king. :tmbup: :tmbup: :tmbup:

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Post #9 Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:21 pm 
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Joaz Banbeck wrote:
...
CHALLENGING:
...

- You can only challenge someone who has a posted playing schedule with the same or Fewer total hours per week. ( When counting hours, anything over 100 hours per week is considered equal to 100 )

...

I think the 100 hour limit is too high. I would recommend something around 30~35. The reason is that 35 already means a schedule with 5 hours a day for all 7 days of the week or 7 hours a day if you have two days a week that you realistically can't expect to be available. Since the limit is involved in gaming the system, I don't think we should encourage too outrageous schedules. In other words people should not be penalized too heavily for having real lives. :blackeye:

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 Post subject: Re: KOTH Rules and Questions
Post #10 Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:10 am 
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ez4u wrote:
...
I think the 100 hour limit is too high...



Thanks for the suggestions. This is a new idea, so it may requite some tweaking.

I'd agree: 100 is too high. That was a leftover from a scheme in which pairings were made by a third party, and each player had to have at least 85 hours to make it work. (24*7)/2 = 84.

I changed it to 50.

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Post #11 Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:31 am 
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Joaz Banbeck wrote:
ez4u wrote:
..
...
I think the 100 hour limit is too high...



Thanks for the suggestions. This is a new idea, so it may requite some tweaking.

I'd agree: 100 is too high. That was a leftover from a scheme in which pairings were made by a third party, and each player had to have at least 85 hours to make it work. (24*7)/2 = 84.

I changed it to 50.

Please consider changing it to 30 or so. People with real jobs (doesn't include me at the moment) can't reasonably post a 50-hour schedule. :salute:

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Post #12 Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:21 am 
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Rules are great except for the point about chalenging people with lower total time in schedule.
What's the point of that?
I can dedicate 21h per week for schedule, but I don't see why I wouldn't be able to challenge someone who is more available.

Please, exclude note about chalenging only equal or lower total time avaliable opponent from the rules. It just doesn't make any sense.

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Post #13 Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 9:20 am 
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The time thing does make sense. It's like a iron man tournament or some such. If not for the time rule everyone would only put a few hours good for them and then you would only play at your optimal time. This rule makes it more challenging and will allow more games to be played because everyone will put more play hours.

Anyway I am going to change my play hours since this rule was changed to 50 hours, I think that is only fair

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Post #14 Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 10:43 am 
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NoSkill wrote:
If not for the time rule everyone would only put a few hours good for them and then you would only play at your optimal time.


What's wrong with everybody playing at their optimal time?

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Post #15 Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 12:06 pm 
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vpopovic wrote:
NoSkill wrote:
If not for the time rule everyone would only put a few hours good for them and then you would only play at your optimal time.


What's wrong with everybody playing at their optimal time?


Nothing in itself, but it limits the potential matches.


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Post #16 Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:58 pm 
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A few questions:

1. Does +f count as a win for the challenger, or just a loss for the forfeited? (If a forfeit is as good as a win, challengers have no reason to be polite about checking the challenge time in advance.)
2. Why prevent people from rejiggering their schedules, so long as they keep the same number of hours open?
3. Why are we handling handicap differently for different matches? I don't discern a purpose. Maybe mob matches at full handi, and then -2, -4, and -6 reduced handi at higher levels?

I don't think anyone can commit to be available at 24 hours notice for even as many as ten hours a week on a consistent basis, if you interpret "available" literally. But if you get into the spirit of things, and treat your posted hours as a sort of bluff, bearing in mind you might get demoted if you're called on it, it won't be too bad.

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Post #17 Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 6:56 pm 
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Joaz Banbeck wrote:
...
have the first assassin to win a game become the first king.


I'll make an exception, just for you: If you get up to the assassin level, I'll play you at a substantially reduced handicap. I think that we should play at 4 or 5 stones. I'll make it TWO stones. It should be an easy win for you.

ez4u wrote:
...
Please consider changing it to 30 or so. People with real jobs (doesn't include me at the moment) can't reasonably post a 50-hour schedule. :salute:


I know that. :twisted:

jts wrote:
...
I don't think anyone can commit to be available at 24 hours notice for even as many as ten hours a week on a consistent basis, if you interpret "available" literally. But if you get into the spirit of things, and treat your posted hours as a sort of bluff, bearing in mind you might get demoted if you're called on it, it won't be too bad.



:clap: Part of scheduling is bluffing. If you read the notes, you may have seen the part that says this was deliberately designed to allow gamesmanship.

In other words, there is a meta-game here. The 'play' of the meta-game is scheduling and challenging and choosing time controls. One of the possibilities is bluffing about your schedule. This give weaker players - weaker at go, at least - a fighting chance.

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Post #18 Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 7:20 pm 
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jts wrote:
... Why prevent people from rejiggering their schedules, so long as they keep the same number of hours open? ...


Because I don't want someone using a difficult schedule to lock himself in as king. If you get to be king, you could look at the schedules of the assassins on the level below you and infer what would be inconvenient hours for them. As various assassins come and go, the king could keep modifying his schedule to impede them.

There is an advantage to having a big, convenient schedule at the bottom ( Someone will play you if you have a convenient schedule. Playing and losing costs nothing at the bottom, so playing as often as possible is a good strategy. )
The is also an advantage to having a small, inconvenient schedule at the top.

Optimizing a schedule for top and bottom is a balancing act. This is one of the 'plays' of the meta-game.

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Post #19 Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 7:40 pm 
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I'll clarify some of the ideas in the previous posts: there is a meta-game. I have tried to make the 'contours' of the hill complicated, so that no single strategy is optimal.

I can think of several strategies that might work. It may be practical to try the slow approach up, with a tight schedule, hoping that someone will challenge you when you are the only other player on their level. If you eventually get to be king, you might hold it for a long time.

The fast path up with a very loose schedule may work also. Being able to play at any time may mean that you may pass competitors - if you win. Even if you lose, you may be able to start again and still pass. The disadvantage to this is that once you become king, assassinating you is easy.

Another possible strategy is to wait at the bottom until you think that people will be busy - at Congress or during Christmas holidays. Then challenge them to a game when you know they have something else to do.

There is at least one other strategy that confers a guaranteed jump of one level - IF a player is perceptive and has been around for a while. I won't say what it is, but I will say that it can be used right now. :lol:

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Post #20 Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 11:13 pm 
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Joaz Banbeck wrote:
[admin]
After the demise of the last two L19 tournaments, I have devised a new one, with a different structure. It will be faster, less serious, and require less of an investment of time.
See viewtopic.php?f=64&t=8646
[/admin]

Great that you took the initiative. Thanks! :tmbup: :tmbup: :tmbup: :tmbup:

Joaz Banbeck wrote:
The basic idea of king of the hill is very simple: there is a hill with several levels. Only one person can occupy the top level - that is the king. Everybody who participates starts at the bottom. To move up, you must beat someone at a game of go.
...

So far so good. It really looks like it has the possibility to overcome the issues that we've had with previous tournaments. :tmbup: :tmbup: :tmbup: :tmbup:

Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Part of scheduling is bluffing. If you read the notes, you may have seen the part that says this was deliberately designed to allow gamesmanship.

In other words, there is a meta-game here. The 'play' of the meta-game is scheduling and challenging and choosing time controls. One of the possibilities is bluffing about your schedule...

Hmmm... Not my cup of tea I'm afraid. If you decide to go back to a Go tournament, give me a buzz. Until then, good luck and have fun! :salute:

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