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 Post subject: Game 4
Post #1 Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 1:21 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Game 4
Post #2 Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 2:19 am 
Judan

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This game seems unusually dull for these players with yose starting around move 80. Was black's lower right corner too big and he just made a simple game to keep the advantage? m15 ended up looking silly with n14; seems something went wrong there.

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 Post subject: Re: Game 4
Post #3 Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 2:51 am 
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The move 76 was better in F4 i think.

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 Post subject: Re: Game 4
Post #4 Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 3:07 am 
Gosei
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For me the game is already over by move 27. Black is connected all over, with good territorial prospects and White's thickness is nullified at the bottom. Next, 28 is uninspired and 29 is the most natural move. By 75 the overconcentration of white stones at the bottom right is painful. Who am I to judge, of course, but it looks like Lee was in bad shape.

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 Post subject: Re: Game 4
Post #5 Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 3:43 am 
Judan

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Yeah, the wall being gote giving black the chance to defend at j4 seems sad. I wonder if Lee had seen Gu's previous game just a week ago, which featured the same opening up to the q10 pincer and which Gu lost. I wonder why he didn't choose this variation.

http://www.go4go.net/go/games/sgfview/41636

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 Post subject: Re: Game 4
Post #6 Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 5:10 am 
Gosei
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Well, there you go. I just read the analysis at gogameguru and it seems I haven't understand the game at all.
Apparently the result is even and White even leaps ahead in the early middle game.

http://gogameguru.com/gu-li-vs-lee-sedo ... go-game-4/

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 Post subject: Re: Game 4
Post #7 Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 5:36 am 
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Uberdude wrote:
This game seems unusually dull for these players with yose starting around move 80. Was black's lower right corner too big and he just made a simple game to keep the advantage? m15 ended up looking silly with n14; seems something went wrong there.


I thought the territory oriented games 3 and 4 were interesting, though neither player is known for this style. It seems to me that Lee Sidol isn't as strong at positional judgement as Gu Li.

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 Post subject: Re: 10 games match Lee Sedol vs Gu Li
Post #8 Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 5:45 am 
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Just reviewed the sgf of Game 4 - was anyone else surprised by move 82? I know the proverb "urgent before big" but this seemed quite slow. Unless he thought he was winning and just wanted to wrap the game up, but seems too early for that.

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 Post subject: Re: Game 4
Post #9 Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 6:44 am 
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Move 8 was suspect for me. It begged to get under pressure by a pincer and thus to give Black a chance to fight and to build up influence or territory or to abandon later for sente. A split would have kept Black flat overall while making some base and points.

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 Post subject: Re: 10 games match Lee Sedol vs Gu Li
Post #10 Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 6:58 am 
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mhlepore wrote:
Just reviewed the sgf of Game 4 - was anyone else surprised by move 82? I know the proverb "urgent before big" but this seemed quite slow. Unless he thought he was winning and just wanted to wrap the game up, but seems too early for that.


Yes, usually a kosumi move like 82 in the middle of the game says: I calculated and affirmed that I lead and now I will make the game safer with this move. And according to commentators White was leading indeed at this point. I think Sedol was calculating too optimistically. It's like if you are a soccer coach and you lead with 1-0 in minute 60 and you choose to substitute for a defender. That's too early and it's questionable it is a good decision at all. Because those moves almost always go along with a more passive/defending attitude and that's poison if your lead is slim and therefore your opponent is even more motivated 'n' aggressive-styled (because he knows he has win in reach).

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 Post subject: Re: Game 4
Post #11 Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 8:00 am 
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Pippen wrote:
Move 8 was suspect for me. It begged to get under pressure by a pincer and thus to give Black a chance to fight and to build up influence or territory or to abandon later for sente. A split would have kept Black flat overall while making some base and points.


Move 8 isn't uncommon in pro games. Move 10 was a new move though.

The comment from the pros late in middle game to early endgame is that both players were playing as if they had the lead.

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 Post subject: Re: Game 4
Post #12 Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 9:42 am 
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Can someone explain :w20: to me? What does that move accomplish?

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 Post subject: Re: Game 4
Post #13 Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 9:56 am 
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emeraldemon wrote:
Can someone explain :w20: to me? What does that move accomplish?


It is a clever way of capturing P7.

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 Post subject: Re: Game 4
Post #14 Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 11:28 am 
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Knotwilg wrote:
For me the game is already over by move 27. Black is connected all over, with good territorial prospects and White's thickness is nullified at the bottom. Next, 28 is uninspired and 29 is the most natural move. By 75 the overconcentration of white stones at the bottom right is painful. Who am I to judge, of course, but it looks like Lee was in bad shape.


Yeah, as people know, I like thickness, but my impression, too, is that Black came out better in the bottom right.

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 Post subject: Re: Game 4
Post #15 Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 1:01 pm 
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Knotwilg, Bill, but do you think white is already ahead by move 81? If so, what went wrong? Is it that F14 and F12 are significantly worse than D14 and D12?

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 Post subject: Re: Game 4
Post #16 Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 2:19 pm 
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Joaz Banbeck wrote:
emeraldemon wrote:
Can someone explain :w20: to me? What does that move accomplish?


It is a clever way of capturing P7.


To follow up on this a little bit since I spent a while mulling over the same question. :w20: forces black to defend himself by pushing from behind with :b21: and :b23: , which gives white the chance to atari p7. That forces black to choose between saving the R7/8 stones or the p7 stone which is obviously no choice at all.

I also wondered why black didn't simply connect at R6 for :b23: , but white would still be able to capture with a ladder and since the descent/cut at R8 would be sente and very big, black would probably want to play there anyway so the connection would have been a wasted move


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 Post subject: Re: Game 4
Post #17 Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 1:50 am 
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upWarrior: I'm awaiting the review at gogameguru. In the preliminary analysis, An Younggil finds the result to be even. That goes to show my positional judgment is worthless.

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 Post subject: Re: Game 4
Post #18 Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:36 am 
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Splatted wrote:
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
emeraldemon wrote:
Can someone explain :w20: to me? What does that move accomplish?


It is a clever way of capturing P7.


To follow up on this a little bit since I spent a while mulling over the same question. :w20: forces black to defend himself by pushing from behind with :b21: and :b23: , which gives white the chance to atari p7. That forces black to choose between saving the R7/8 stones or the p7 stone which is obviously no choice at all.

I also wondered why black didn't simply connect at R6 for :b23: , but white would still be able to capture with a ladder and since the descent/cut at R8 would be sente and very big, black would probably want to play there anyway so the connection would have been a wasted move


:shock: Wow... I will let that one for latter :w9: :w9: ' :w9: :w9: :w9: kilometers from my level...

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 Post subject: Re: Game 4
Post #19 Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:40 pm 
Judan

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Re move 20: black isn't forced to atari and let white capture the cutting stone: he could defend and fight but you lose quite a lot of points initially for a less certain profit from the fight:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Fight
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 7 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 X O 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . O X 3 1 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Probably 4 is the shape, but if white has to answer 5 at 6 then black can come back to answer at 7. White a is sente here which means black's corner is very small and it helps the outside group in the fight. It seems white needs to do it before 6 in fact otherwsise black can hane there and cut and 2 stone squeeze. Difficult fight...


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 Post subject: Re: Game 4
Post #20 Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:30 pm 
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uPWarrior wrote:
Knotwilg, Bill, but do you think white is already ahead by move 81? If so, what went wrong? Is it that F14 and F12 are significantly worse than D14 and D12?


Caveats:

First, I do not think that the published methods of positional evaluation are accurate, and I suppose that they form the basis for professional judgement, even if they do not capture all of it. For one thing, if those methods were reasonably accurate, computer programs could have used them as a basis for much better evaluation functions than they had in the pre-Monte Carlo era.

Second, in the published methods that I have seen, pros subtract full komi from Black's score. But they should not do that early in the game, only subtracting full komi by the end of the game. I do not know actual pro practice.

Third, in the published methods that I have seen, pros do not make allowance for whose turn it is. One exception seems to be O Meien, IIRC.

OK. By move 27, I think that Black has gained around 6-7 points. I actually think that Black maintains a lead throughout the game, despite losing some ground in the top right, up to :w68:. I also think that he loses a bit by playing safe. For instance, I think that :b55: says that he is confident of winning if he can nullify White's thickness in the center. No need to contest the left side, which could lead to complications. Also, :b75: plays safe, instead of sliding into the bottom left corner or reducing the left side. I suspect that Gu Li thought that he was ahead at these points. It would be interesting to hear his comments.

OTOH, :w82: makes me think that maybe Lee Sedol thought that he was ahead at that point. It would be interesting to hear his comments, as well. :)

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