It is currently Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:14 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 46 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Game 4
Post #41 Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 10:58 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 553
Liked others: 61
Was liked: 250
Rank: AGA 5 dan
pwaldron wrote:
To add to this, I'm not even sure that pros have a definitive count in their own mind. I remember watching Michael Redmond do a game commentary and he commented that one side was ahead. Someone asked by how much and got a fairly generic answer in response ('quite ahead', or some such).
I piped up and asked Michael how many points komi he would want to switch sides and that stopped him in his tracks. He looked at the board for a good minute before coming up with a number.

Even then, it is not clear that he actually counted the board, in the sense we are thinking about here. Instead, it is quite likely that he thought something like "hmm, there was one slack move here, probably cost 2 points, and another move there that did not turn out so well, maybe lost another 3 points".

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Game 4
Post #42 Posted: Sun May 18, 2014 7:57 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 1262
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 502
Commentary of 4th game by An Younggil at GOGAMEGURU.


http://gogameguru.com/go-commentary-gu- ... go-game-4/


This post by trout was liked by 2 people: MJK, xed_over
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Game 4
Post #43 Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 10:45 am 
Dies with sente

Posts: 94
Location: Amsterdam, NL
Liked others: 29
Was liked: 63
trout wrote:
Commentary of 4th game by An Younggil at GOGAMEGURU.


http://gogameguru.com/go-commentary-gu- ... go-game-4/

I am very curious about Robert Jasiek's opinion.
Below, An Younggil's commentary after move 27 from the link above.

Quote:
When White created a thick shape with White 26, reinforcing the bottom area with Black 27 became necessary. The result up to here was even.

After the game, readers at Go Game Guru discussed this position on our website and many people thought that the result was better for Black. The result does look good for Black at first glance, but most professionals, including me, concluded that the result was even.

There are a number of subtle factors to consider in this position:

1. Black has to defend at Black 27, so White takes sente.

2. Black started out with four stones in this area, whereas White had only one. So we should expect Black to profit more than White does in this part of the board.

3. Even after Black 27, Black's position at the bottom is still weak, because of the power of White's thick group. For example, it will be easy for White to invade at A later.

4. Because Black's still weak at the bottom, White's lower left corner is actually much bigger than it looks. Black can't expect to be able to invade at B without provoking a severe counter-attack. And White can enlarge the corner in sente, by harassing Black later (see the variation for one example).

5. Because White's lower right group has good eye potential, it's much more powerful than a simple wall would be. It's more than a wall - it's thickness. Extending along the bottom is less important for this kind of group, because there's no urgency to create a base (think eyespace) for it.

6. Even though Black 27 reduces the potential of White's thickness, Black doesn't have much potential to speak of either. White's thickness turns the bottom into a no man's land, where neither player can expect to make many points. And the lower right corner is settled, mostly along the third line. Black's stone at C is slightly over-concentrated.

7. White has potential on the left side and at the top, which he can develop with sente.

8. Both players exchanged one stone (D and E), but White D still has some endgame aji, as we'll see later, so Black's lower right corner is a bit smaller than it looks.

_________________
Wait, please.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Game 4
Post #44 Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 11:23 am 
Oza

Posts: 2342
Liked others: 15
Was liked: 3400
Quote:
6. Even though Black 27 reduces the potential of White's thickness, Black doesn't have much potential to speak of either. White's thickness turns the bottom into a no man's land, where neither player can expect to make many points. And the lower right corner is settled, mostly along the third line. Black's stone at C is slightly over-concentrated.


It has just occurred to me that White's group is actually a kind of "Go Seigen group" and this is a Chernobyl area (see "The Mystic Emperor, Go Seigen" in The Go Companion p. 93). So the theory for Yi Se-tol's play exists already!!!

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Game 4
Post #45 Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 3:01 pm 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2142
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Liked others: 1977
Was liked: 1211
Rank: Jp 6 dan
KGS: ez4u
John Fairbairn wrote:
Quote:
6. Even though Black 27 reduces the potential of White's thickness, Black doesn't have much potential to speak of either. White's thickness turns the bottom into a no man's land, where neither player can expect to make many points. And the lower right corner is settled, mostly along the third line. Black's stone at C is slightly over-concentrated.


It has just occurred to me that White's group is actually a kind of "Go Seigen group" and this is a Chernobyl area (see "The Mystic Emperor, Go Seigen" in The Go Companion p. 93). So the theory for Yi Se-tol's play exists already!!!
[emphasis added]

LOL! The first (only) thought I had about this position when I saw it was, "Well at least White got that radioactive stuff that JF's always whining about". You're a better teacher than you realize John! :bow:

_________________
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21


This post by ez4u was liked by: illluck
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Game 4
Post #46 Posted: Fri May 23, 2014 7:58 pm 
Tengen

Posts: 4796
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 648
MJK wrote:
I am very curious about Robert Jasiek's opinion.
Below, An Younggil's commentary after move 27 from the link above.


Instead of discussing only details, An should start with the basics of positional judgement: the territory count and the influence stone difference. Instead he discusses details without relating them to the basics. Although he mentions some details, he does not mention others. E.g., White's stone top right of E is even less efficient than Black's stone at C. E.g., a detail like White's lower right endgame aji can simply be expressed as a part of the territory count instead of pretending it to be an extra advantage in White's favour.

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 46 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group