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 Post subject: 9th OGS Kuksu Title Tournament (Rules and Discussion)
Post #1 Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2015 9:22 pm 
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The 9th cycle of Kuksu Main Title Tournament is ready for sign-up!

Here's the current draft of the rules:

General Introduction
The Kuksu Title Tournament is a tournament in league format.

Rule 1: Hierarchy
The hierarchy of the league is in the exponential function with base 2. Typically, we have:
Tier 1: League A
Tier 2: League B1, League B2
Tier 3: League C1, League C2, League C3, League C4
...
Tier n: League (A+n-1)1, ..., League (A+n-1)2^(n-1)

Rule 2: Promotion & Demotion
Each league is a round-robin tournament consisting of 5 to 10 players. Every player plays one game against every other player in that league. Generally speaking,
(2.1) the player winning the top league, League A, will challenge the previous Kuksu title holder in the best-of-five title match to determine the new title holder. The loser of the title match will be placed in League A of the next cycle.
(2.2) the 2nd place in league A stays in league A for the next cycle. Other than League A, players who finish 1st or 2nd in their league will advance and compete in the next highest league in the next cycle;
(2.3) players who finish 3rd, 4th, or 5th compete at the same tier in the next cycle;
(2.4) players who come in 6th place or lower, will compete in next lowest league in the next cycle;
(2.5) if there are many players dropping off in the next cycle without enough new players with high rating, the players might be placed in a higher (but never lower) league than the default tier decided in (2.2)-(2.4);

Rule 3: Tie breaker
There are two kinds of tie breaker:
(3.1) System tie breaker:
The top three players in each league will automatically get the trophy from the system. (Disqualified players could not get the trophy)
(3.2) League tie breaker:
The tie among players with the same points will be broken first by the sum of defeated opponent's scores (SODOS), then the league tier in the last cycle, then the league ranking in the last cycle, and lastly by overall rank. Players disqualified by timeout will not be considered disqualified since we only have one round. However, if you timeout too many games, you're likely to be demoted using either tie breaker. This tie breaker will be applied in all cases except the trophy determination.

Rule 4: Drop-out
(4.1) Every player (old or new) must register for the new cycle in the sign-up page created about 1~2 months prior to the new cycle, in order to be considered in the league arrangement.
(4.2) When the registration period ends, invitations will be sent to the registered players and there will be a period of about 2 weeks for the players to accept the tournament invitation.
(4.3) As mentioned above, if you finish 1st or 2nd in your league you will compete in the next highest league in the next cycle. However, if you decide to skip and not play in the next cycle, you will probably not advance to the next highest league when do decide to resume the participation. Skipping a tournament results in "starting over again" if and when you ever do wish to resume.

Rule 5: First-time player
If you're entering the league for the first time, the league you are seeded in initially is based upon both your rating and the needs of that particular tournament. For example, a player may be initially seeded in League B and yet have a higher rating than some of the players in League A. The reason is these players with the lower rating in League A may have earned their right to be there by placing high in League B in the previous cycle.

Rule 6: Match setting
Fischer: Clock starts with 1 week and increments by 1 day per move up to a maximum of 1 week.
No handicap, 6.5 komi, Japanese (or Korean) rules, conditional moves enabled.

Rule 7: Number of Tiers
Assume all the leagues are full (with 10 players), then Tier k could hold 10 * 2^(k-1) players, and Tier 1~k could hold up to 10 * (2^k - 1) players.
Therefore,
(1) if we have 5-10 players , k = 1, there will be only one tier (tier 1).
(2) if we have 11-30 players, k = 2, there will be 2 tiers.
(3) if we have 31-70 players, k = 3, there will be 3 tiers.
(4) if we have 71-150 players, k = 4, there will be 4 tiers.
(5) if we have 151-310 players, k = 5, there will be 5 tiers.
(6) if we have 311-630 players, k = 6, there will be 6 tiers.
(7) if we have > 630 players, that would be one of the largest go tournaments ever:)

Rule 8: Number of groups and players in the bottom tier
It's quite possible that we do not have the exact number.

In general, assume we have n (10 * (2^k - 1) < n < 10 * (2^(k+1) - 1)) players, we'll fill up the first k tiers with 10 * (2^k - 1) players and then, the remaining r = n - 10 * (2^k - 1) players will be divided into as many league groups as possible, while ensuring that the number of players in each group is between 5 and 10 and the total number of groups does not exceed 2^k.

If r >= 5 * 2^k, we could have all 2^k groups with at least 5 players, and the remaining (r - 5 * 2^k) players will be distributed to the 2^k groups as evenly as possible;

If r < 5 * 2^k, we could have at most Floor(r/5) groups with at least 5 players, and the remaining players will be distributed to these groups as evenly as possible.

Let's say if we have 257 players, we'll fill up the first 4 tiers with 150 players and then, the remaining 107 players will be divided into as many league groups as possible, while ensuring that the number of players in each group is between 5 and 10 and the total number of the groups does not exceed 2^4 = 16. In this case we have 107 >= 80 = 5 * 16, so we could have all 16 groups with at least 5 players, and the remaining 27 = 16 * 1 + 11 players could be distributed to the groups as evenly as possible, resulting in 11 groups with 7 players and 5 groups with 6 players. (Thanks to @HermanHiddema for pointing it out)

In case the number of remaining players is 1~4 (e.g. if we have 314 players), we might exclude some players that are in the timeout status and show no evidence of returning, or invite some more players to make the grouping possible.

Rule 9: Equivalence of rating when comparing between the old player and the new player:
(9.1) We'll describe it with an example: if one player drops out of the league from League A and we only have 9 players by default, one player from League B (including the demoted player from League A in the last cycle) or the new players (the players from lower leagues are also considered as the new players in this case) might be drawn to fill up League A. The 3rd to 5th place from League B will be awarded 300, 200 and 100 ELO ratings, and the 6th to 8th place from previous League A will be awarded 300, 200 and 100 ratings, when compared with the new players. The same process will happen sequentially from higher tiers to lower tiers.
(9.2) If you were in the disqualification status (due to e.g. timeout) in the last cycle, there will be no awarding points even if you are placed in the positions described in (9.1) using the League tie-breaker described in (3.2).

Rule 10: Seeding Method
Once the players in each tier are decided, they will be placed using the snake seeding method according to their equivalent ELO rating.

Grouping Algorithm Overview:
-Input: Names of registered players with the current overall ratings, the tournament result (including the player name, league tier, league rank) from the last cycle.
-Output: The arrangement of the new league.

This system will be too complicated if it's done manually. @Leira and I will try to make the system run automatically using the API.

Notes:

This is the second draft of the system and any helpers, suggestions and comments are welcome:)

You can sign up here.

You could also join the OGS Title Tournament group for future tournaments :)

The original announcement was here, and @tegais suggested making an announcement on L19 as well. ;-)


Last edited by gamesorry on Mon Oct 26, 2015 2:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 9th OGS Kuksu Title Tournament (Rules and Discussion)
Post #2 Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2015 2:07 am 
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Cool. Looks wel organized.

If you haven't already done so, consider posting to reddit/baduk, too.

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 Post subject: Re: 9th OGS Kuksu Title Tournament (Rules and Discussion)
Post #3 Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2015 7:58 am 
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Good news! I stopped playing on OGS because there were too many bugs and nobody seemed to care about. It seems to be worth to give it another try.

Is it finally fixed that the stronger player always takes white? Also this strange business that some people got extra points for free. Is it finally fixed or can you manually overwrite it to make sure that the promotions are fair?

I didn't find it explicitely in your post: what happens when a player gets a single time-out? Last time I played on OGS, there was this rather draconic kick out-punishment in force with an additional marking of the account as "T" which you could only get rid off by playing and regularly finishing a turned based game (for some reason not a live one, and the bots only were playing live games) which was another reason why I decided not to bother anymore with OGS.

edited: I confused komi for 9x9 and 19x19 on OGS

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 Post subject: Re: 9th OGS Kuksu Title Tournament (Rules and Discussion)
Post #4 Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2015 3:16 pm 
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wineandgolover wrote:
Cool. Looks wel organized.

If you haven't already done so, consider posting to reddit/baduk, too.


Thanks for the suggestion, I've posted it on reddit/baduk just now :D

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 Post subject: Re: 9th OGS Kuksu Title Tournament (Rules and Discussion)
Post #5 Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2015 3:48 pm 
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bayu wrote:
Is it finally fixed that the stronger player always takes white?


Yes, it has been fixed :)

bayu wrote:
Also this strange business that some people got extra points for free. Is it finally fixed or can you manually overwrite it to make sure that the promotions are fair?


Unfortunately this issue has not been addressed (https://forums.online-go.com/t/duplicat ... ments/5367 https://forums.online-go.com/t/error-in ... ounts/2147). The current workaround is that I could manually adjust the scores of the players as the tournament director when the tournament is not finished, so every time I find this bug happening I'll manually fix it (I've done this 10+ times in the title tournaments running currently). However, it would be impossible for me to monitor all the errors, especially when it happens at the last game of a round.

And yes, I would manually overwrite it in the promotion/demotion ;-)

bayu wrote:
I didn't find it explicitely in your post: what happens when a player gets a single time-out? Last time I played on OGS, there was this rather draconic kick out-punishment in force with an additional marking of the account as "T" which you could only get rid off by playing and regularly finishing a turned based game (for some reason not a live one, and the bots only were playing live games) which was another reason why I decided not to bother anymore with OGS.


A player still gets an immediate disqualification in all the tournaments on OGS with a single time-out :sad:. This is why we have Rule 3 - I'll illustrate it with an example:

Assume in some group, player A wins 8 games but timeouts in 1 game; Player B wins 7 games and loses 2 games; Player C wins 6 games and loses 3 games. All the other players win fewer than 6 games.

Player A would get disqualified automatically by the system, thus could not get any trophy (we can do nothing about it unless the developers change the setting), while player B gets the gold trophy and player C gets the silver trophy. However, I'll apply rule (3.2) as the summary of the tournament result as well as the promotion/demotion, so player A and B will be promoted in the next cycle (and if this is League A, player A would be the challenger unless he/she never comes back).

In other words, all results except the trophy assignment will ignore the disqualification-by-timeout 'feature' on OGS.

edit: to be precise, the disqualification would also affect the award ratings described in Rule 9.

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 Post subject: Re: 9th OGS Kuksu Title Tournament (Rules and Discussion)
Post #6 Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 3:23 am 
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gamesorry wrote:
Rule 8: Number of groups and players in the bottom tier
It's quite possible that we do not have the exact number. Let's say if we have 257 players, we'll fill up the first 4 tiers with 150 players and then, the remaining 107 players will be divided into as many league groups as possible, while ensuring that the number of players in each group is between 5 and 10 and the total number of the groups does not exceed 2^4 = 16. In this case we have 107/5 > 16, 107/6 > 16, 107/7 = 15.xxx < 16, so we'll have 15 groups in Tier 5, 13 of which having 7 players and 2 of which having 8 players.


If you maximize the number of groups, then 107 should result in 11 x 7 and 5 x 6 for a total of 16 groups, right?

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 Post subject: Re: 9th OGS Kuksu Title Tournament (Rules and Discussion)
Post #7 Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 2:25 pm 
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HermanHiddema wrote:
gamesorry wrote:
Rule 8: Number of groups and players in the bottom tier
It's quite possible that we do not have the exact number. Let's say if we have 257 players, we'll fill up the first 4 tiers with 150 players and then, the remaining 107 players will be divided into as many league groups as possible, while ensuring that the number of players in each group is between 5 and 10 and the total number of the groups does not exceed 2^4 = 16. In this case we have 107/5 > 16, 107/6 > 16, 107/7 = 15.xxx < 16, so we'll have 15 groups in Tier 5, 13 of which having 7 players and 2 of which having 8 players.


If you maximize the number of groups, then 107 should result in 11 x 7 and 5 x 6 for a total of 16 groups, right?


Good catch! I proposed the wrong greedy method for that. The maximum number of groups with at least 5 players in each of them should be min(2^k, Floor(r/5)) and in this case, min(2^4, Floor(107/5)) = 16. I have updated the description of Rule 8.

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 Post subject: Re: 9th OGS Kuksu Title Tournament (Rules and Discussion)
Post #8 Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 5:16 am 
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Nice to see the OGS tournament navigation has improved with that index page of past cycles and results tables (though I couldn't find any link to the title matches). But is each cycle just a single round and was it like that in old OGS? I have a recollection of there being 3 rounds, or was that only the "Group McMahon" format tournaments like the OGS Honinbo and the Kuksu was always one round per cycle? Also is the titleholder allowed to play in the league? I recall I did that for some tournaments and ended up playing myself in the title match when I won the qualifying. Preventing them from doing so has the downside that you deprive them of the opportunity to play serious tournament games. Allowing them means either there is no title match (sad for kibitzers if they exist, is there any excitement over title matches yet?) or they play themselves (I replayed some fun pro games) if they win, or you could have the match between them and the 2nd place but that should be declared as part of the rules in advance.

And are conditional moves not allowed? That seems kinda dumb, but I also vaguely recall talking about this before and how the new OGS considers that and analysis mode 'cheating' in tournaments, though of course they can't stop you making an SGF to try out variations so it's pretty pointless and just slows down the games.

P.S. Can I be honorary OGS Kuksu seeing as I won 5 times in a row? ;-)

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 Post subject: Re: 9th OGS Kuksu Title Tournament (Rules and Discussion)
Post #9 Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 5:37 pm 
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Uberdude wrote:
Nice to see the OGS tournament navigation has improved with that index page of past cycles and results tables

The navigation was not generated automatically by the system but done manually, by inserting html codes into the tournament description field ;-). You can go over the summary of other title tournaments by clicking on the Title names on the group page (https://online-go.com/group/515), which link to the newest cycles of the tournaments.

Uberdude wrote:
though I couldn't find any link to the title matches.

I considered adding the links of the title match pages, but the problem is there's no way we can access the games from the existing title match page (e.g., https://online-go.com/tournament/2545), and there's no more title match page for the manually held title tournaments since 2015 (the challenger and the title holder need to create the games with the correct names and settings by themselves). But I guess I'll directly add the links to each board as a workaround.

Uberdude wrote:
But is each cycle just a single round and was it like that in old OGS? I have a recollection of there being 3 rounds, or was that only the "Group McMahon" format tournaments like the OGS Honinbo and the Kuksu was always one round per cycle?

The Kuksu Title tournament is the only one with one single round, while all the other Title tournaments have three rounds (as in the old OGS) because they are all in Simultaneous McMahon formats now. Check out Meijin Nines Title Tournament, Meijin Main Title Tournament and Honinbo Main Title Tournament as examples ;-) .

Uberdude wrote:
Also is the titleholder allowed to play in the league? I recall I did that for some tournaments and ended up playing myself in the title match when I won the qualifying. Preventing them from doing so has the downside that you deprive them of the opportunity to play serious tournament games. Allowing them means either there is no title match (sad for kibitzers if they exist, is there any excitement over title matches yet?) or they play themselves (I replayed some fun pro games) if they win, or you could have the match between them and the 2nd place but that should be declared as part of the rules in advance.


Good question! At first I thought that the title holder could not play in the league, but after second thought I realize that in that case the loser of the title match would not be able to challenge again immediately in the next title match. I guess the best solution would be letting the title holder play in the league (and also the other title tournaments) and have the title match between the title holder and the second place if the title holder wins the title tournament. I'll declare this rule in the future tournaments (including this one) :D .

Uberdude wrote:
And are conditional moves not allowed? That seems kinda dumb, but I also vaguely recall talking about this before and how the new OGS considers that and analysis mode 'cheating' in tournaments, though of course they can't stop you making an SGF to try out variations so it's pretty pointless and just slows down the games.


In all title tournaments manually held since this February, the conditional moves are enabled ;-) .

Uberdude wrote:
P.S. Can I be honorary OGS Kuksu seeing as I won 5 times in a row? ;-)


Definitely! That's a rule I intend to make for all the titles. I might reduce the difficulty a little by lowering down the criteria to be "winning 5 times" (not necessarily in a row). Actually you're still officially the Kuksu title holder and if you'd like to come back now, you can have a title match with vitality and get the chance to keep your streak in Kuksu :D . And you can also come back to win the other honorary titles!


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 Post subject: Re: 9th OGS Kuksu Title Tournament (Rules and Discussion)
Post #10 Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2015 3:15 am 
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Please see the latest update for the title tournament policies here. ;-)

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