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 Post subject: Re: Shin Jinseo's Study Plan
Post #21 Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:01 am 
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But you agree that there is significant difference between:

1.There is no formula
2.There is no formula usefull for computing.

We werent talking about 2nd at all! If you want, we can talk about usefull formulas for computing prime numbers in completely different thread, but lets keep this talk about what it was.


To not derail original thread completely, i want to say that i feel jealous for ppl who believe that bad teachers does not exist - they must have met only good teachers in their whole like, which is very good for them.

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 Post subject: Re: Shin Jinseo's Study Plan
Post #22 Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:40 am 
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The notion of "formula" is not well-defined, unless you specify which symbols you are allowed to use. People may object to the use of summation symbols.


I agree that bad teachers exist, however it is not easy to determine if someone is a good or a bad teacher. Certainly someone who teaches wrong ideas/mistakes, or who breaks student's motivation, is a bad teacher, but outside extreme cases like that, I think that the student's progress has much more to do with his passion and with a stimulating environment (competition against other students) than with the teaching abilities of the master.

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 Post subject: Re: Shin Jinseo's Study Plan
Post #23 Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:51 am 
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Summation symbol is just a short form of writing many sums. I dont see any problem with it.

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 Post subject: Re: Shin Jinseo's Study Plan
Post #24 Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2020 3:00 am 
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Suppose someone wants a formula that computes sum(k ; k=1...n). According to your criteria, "sum(k ; k=1...n)" would be a perfectly valid answer. However, other people may object that this answer is tautological, hence completely useless, and would like a formula without summation symbols, like n(n+1)/2. Both are right in some sense, since you didn't define precisely what you mean by "formula", so both of you implicitly started with different definitions.

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 Post subject: Re: Shin Jinseo's Study Plan
Post #25 Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2020 3:13 am 
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Yes this is perfectly valid useless answer.

Think about this way:

1.F(x)=1
2.F(x)=1+x
3.F(x)=1+x+x^2 etc

Are all of this formulas? You all the time say about usefullness which make me think you are practicing-informatician/programmer. If so, then your point is understandable, practical usefulness is most important to you, but that is still another subject.

If you disagree with summation symbol which is just short form of writing some sums, then you also must object for integral symbol. Really think that?

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 Post subject: Re: Shin Jinseo's Study Plan
Post #26 Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2020 3:24 am 
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I am not objecting to the use of any particular symbol, nor saying that a formula should have some practical use, I just said that you and your teacher had different implicit definitions for the word "formula".

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 Post subject: Re: Shin Jinseo's Study Plan
Post #27 Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2020 3:38 am 
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How you know we had different definitions of formula?

I think no, i even didnt talked with this teacher at all - i think she would be deeply shocked if anybody would present her one of such a formulas. I was about 10 years old then, so i just remembered and thought she is right, unless was proven wrong years after that.

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 Post subject: Re: Shin Jinseo's Study Plan
Post #28 Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2020 3:52 am 
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Of course I don't know for sure, I am not in her head, it's just my guess. And my guess is that, for most people, a "formula that computes f(n)" is "a formula that computes f(n) more efficiently than the naive algorithm", or at least a non-tautological formula.

You may have another opinion, but you are not in the majority, so my guess is that your teacher's statement makes sense for most people, and in any case is not a proof that she was a bad teacher.

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 Post subject: Re: Shin Jinseo's Study Plan
Post #29 Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2020 3:56 am 
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AloneAgainstAll wrote:
You really think this is good paraphrase? I dont think so. There are things we cant "enclose" in mathemathical formulas (like results of integral of sin(x^2) cant be described by elementary functions, only infinite sum ) etc. So the fact that we can produce such a formula (even if its completely useless for computing) is mathemathically significant.


Ok, I define S(t) as the integral of sin(x^2) from 0 to t. Now I can write you a nice short correct formula for it, i.e. S(t). Yes, it does not use elementary functions only, but your prime formula with floor functions does not use only elementary functions either. The whole issue is really about what kind of formulas we allow.

I don't dispute that maybe you had a bad teachers, and maybe he/she could have discussed the nuances of formulas and algorithms better.

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 Post subject: Re: Shin Jinseo's Study Plan
Post #30 Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:11 am 
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Well, if for you this wrong statment makes still sense, then i give up.

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 Post subject: Re: Shin Jinseo's Study Plan
Post #31 Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:42 am 
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AloneAgainstAll wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:

What is the simplest formula that works?


This is argument which is backing up your claim? I must admit, i expected sth much better.


IOW, you don't know.

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 Post subject: Re: Shin Jinseo's Study Plan
Post #32 Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:49 am 
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Basically to Zermelo:

zermelo wrote:
AloneAgainstAll wrote:
You really think this is good paraphrase? I dont think so. There are things we cant "enclose" in mathemathical formulas (like results of integral of sin(x^2) cant be described by elementary functions, only infinite sum ) etc. So the fact that we can produce such a formula (even if its completely useless for computing) is mathemathically significant.


Ok, I define S(t) as the integral of sin(x^2) from 0 to t. Now I can write you a nice short correct formula for it, i.e. S(t). Yes, it does not use elementary functions only, but your prime formula with floor functions does not use only elementary functions either. The whole issue is really about what kind of formulas we allow.

I don't dispute that maybe you had a bad teachers, and maybe he/she could have discussed the nuances of formulas and algorithms better.


Its not "mine" formula, its Paulo Ribenboim formula i believe (or maybe someone other, not sure). If you look closely at your example you will find a small mistake there, but i know what you mean (thats completely sidenote, you dont need to improve your example, i trust you know the drill)

Yes this formula use floor function which is not elementary function. But that is completely another topic, i used this example with S(x^2) to explain (i guess i was not understood) that enclosing sth in formula is mathematically significant, even if formula is not usefull for computations.

You ask what formulas we allow? All that are well defined in ZFC (+AC or not, as you wish). If we would try to limit it, then why to make any formulas at all?

You really think this is about what formulas we allow? I dont think so. Now we are wise, we know that such a formulas exist (though they are not usefull for computations, not important), but can you provide formula which would produce nontrivial zeros for Riemmann-Zeta function? I guess no. But imagine that in 10 years mathematicians broke this, computed all nontrivial zeros and proved that there are no more. Now producing such a formula looks pretty different, isnt it?

She couldnt explain nuances of formulas and algorithms. She was elementary school teacher, and i was 10 years old then.

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 Post subject: Re: Shin Jinseo's Study Plan
Post #33 Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2020 5:07 am 
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Bill Spight wrote:
AloneAgainstAll wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:

What is the simplest formula that works?


This is argument which is backing up your claim? I must admit, i expected sth much better.


IOW, you don't know.


I think your attitude toward me is in contradiction with forum rules - you bash me all the time, completely disrespect me, play dumb and catch on grammar mistakes and niuances. Do you feel good with that?

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 Post subject: Re: Shin Jinseo's Study Plan
Post #34 Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2020 5:26 am 
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AloneAgainstAll wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:

What is the simplest formula that works?


This is argument which is backing up your claim? I must admit, i expected sth much better.

AloneAgainstAll wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
IOW, you don't know.


I think your attitude toward me is in contradiction with forum rules - you bash me all the time, completely disrespect me, play dumb and catch on grammar mistakes and niuances. Do you feel good with that?


IOW, you don't know.

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 Post subject: Re: Shin Jinseo's Study Plan
Post #35 Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2020 5:34 am 
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Bill Spight wrote:
AloneAgainstAll wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:

What is the simplest formula that works?


This is argument which is backing up your claim? I must admit, i expected sth much better.

AloneAgainstAll wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
IOW, you don't know.


I think your attitude toward me is in contradiction with forum rules - you bash me all the time, completely disrespect me, play dumb and catch on grammar mistakes and niuances. Do you feel good with that?


IOW, you don't know.


You think you are being funny?

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 Post subject: Re: Shin Jinseo's Study Plan
Post #36 Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:00 am 
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AloneAgainstAll wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:

What is the simplest formula that works?


This is argument which is backing up your claim? I must admit, i expected sth much better.

AloneAgainstAll wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
IOW, you don't know.


I think your attitude toward me is in contradiction with forum rules - you bash me all the time, completely disrespect me, play dumb and catch on grammar mistakes and niuances. Do you feel good with that?

AloneAgainstAll wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
IOW, you don't know.


You think you are being funny?


I think I am being accurate.

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 Post subject: Re: Shin Jinseo's Study Plan
Post #37 Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:07 am 
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So are there anymore backup for your claims, or thats all?

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 Post subject: Re: Shin Jinseo's Study Plan
Post #38 Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:13 am 
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This is my favorite math forum <3

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 Post subject: Re: Shin Jinseo's Study Plan
Post #39 Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:24 am 
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Bill Spight wrote:
What is the simplest formula that works?

AloneAgainstAll wrote:
This is argument which is backing up your claim? I must admit, i expected sth much better.

Bill Spight wrote:
IOW, you don't know.

AloneAgainstAll wrote:
So are there anymore backup for your claims, or thats all?

You posted an expression which you claim is one of several formulae that work. Apparently you are unaware of a simpler one. OK.

Please explain what the expression means. You may assume that we are elementary school students.

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 Post subject: Re: Shin Jinseo's Study Plan
Post #40 Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2020 9:09 am 
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Wilson's theorem here is simpler, in my opinion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formula_for_primes

But it's not that useful. You can express many computer algorithms in the form of a "formula", but it's not necessarily that useful - it's just a way to express the relationship.

Note that in the article linked above, there's a proof showing that no non-constant polynomial P(n) with integer coefficients exists that evaluates to a prime number for all integers n. Maybe something along these lines is what the professor was getting at.

Anyway, back to the point, I agree that there can be bad teachers. As a student, it's probably in your best interest to strive for success despite this.

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