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 Post subject: Re: Trolling in physics.
Post #21 Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 7:02 pm 
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Araban wrote:
...but imagine how much better this idea would be with an infinite energy system:


you know, I just remembered... back when I was in school, maybe about 12 years old, a friend and I came up with what we thought was an excellent idea... We would design an electric car, but with a generator attached to the drive axle. This, naturally, would produce the electricity needed to power the electric motor. We thought maybe just one car battery to to get things started...

Okay, I'm happy to admit that I wasn't the brightest twelve-year-old. But the sad part of the story is that we presented the idea to our math teacher, and he thought it was worth a try.

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Post #22 Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 7:22 pm 
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Monadology wrote:
...

QUESTION: What should the brain do?

...


This is going to have me up awhile…

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Post #23 Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 8:42 pm 
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Jordus wrote:
@hyperpape:

I believe you are right about not being able to solve in real numbers... I believe you end up with i in there somewhere.. I didn't even bother to go about checking solutions... I only looked at the method used to attain his current solutions...


It's straightforward to see that there's no real solution. If you happen to remember that the minimum point of an upward sloping parabola is at x = -b/2a, then you know that the minimum is at (-1/2, 3/4). So there's no solution. Or you can note that |x^2| > |x| anytime |x| > 1, while a solution requires that x^2 - x < -1.

I actually don't think any of his algebraic manipulations are at fault. It's just garbage in, garbage out. If an equation has two solutions, you can substitute just one for a variable, so long as you don't subsequently use the other. Moreover, if a variable occurs twice, you can substitute for one instance of it and not the other, so long as you don't later perform an inconsistent substitution on the other.

Oh, the last post had a huge brain fart--every polynomial has at least one complex solution, though I spoke the truth so far as I indicated that I didn't know how to check what they were...

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 Post subject: Re: Trolling in [field of study].
Post #24 Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 9:37 pm 
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hyperpape wrote:
It's much more straightforward than that, Jordus. The equation x^2 - x + 1 = 0 has no solutions (at least in the reals--I can't recall a nice way to check in the complex numbers).


The quadratic equation works just fine for the complex numbers.



hyperpape wrote:
It's straightforward to see that there's no real solution. If you happen to remember that the minimum point of an upward sloping parabola is at x = -b/2a, then you know that the minimum is at (-1/2, 3/4). So there's no solution. Or you can note that |x^2| > |x| anytime |x| > 1, while a solution requires that x^2 - x < -1.

I actually don't think any of his algebraic manipulations are at fault. It's just garbage in, garbage out. If an equation has two solutions, you can substitute just one for a variable, so long as you don't subsequently use the other. Moreover, if a variable occurs twice, you can substitute for one instance of it and not the other, so long as you don't later perform an inconsistent substitution on the other.

Oh, the last post had a huge brain fart--every polynomial has at least one complex solution, though I spoke the truth so far as I indicated that I didn't know how to check what they were...


The original equation had two solutions, both of them solutions to the equation x^3 = 1. I am not a mathematician, but increasing the degree of a polynomial expression often introduces a spurious solution.


EDIT:
How about this one? Recall that e ^ pi*i = -1

e ^ 1 = e ^ (1 + 2*pi*i) = (e ^ (1 + 2*pi*i)) ^ (1 + 2*pi*i) = e ^ ((1 + 2*pi*i)^2) = e ^ (1 + 4*pi*i - 4*pi^2) = e ^ (1 - 4*pi^2)

trollface.jpg

SpongeBob wrote:
As a physicist (or maybe just a trolling one?), let me try this here:

Take a newspaper with a big headline and stand before a mirror. Hold up the newspaper so that you can see the headline and try to read it. You will notice that the letters are flipped:
The first letter of each word is not at the left side, but on the right. Also, the letters itself are flipped regarding left and right. BUT: the letters are NOT flipped regarding up and down. Also the headline is above the article as expected, not below.

This proves that a mirror is flipping right and left, but not up and down - despite the perfectly symetric position where there should be no difference between the up-down and left-right direction.

Physics has gone crazy!!


I fail at physics. Reading the newspaper in front of the mirror I did not notice any flipping whatsoever. After some thought I decided to try to read the headline in the mirror instead. After turning the front page toward the mirror I noticed that the up-down directions had been flipped but the left-right directions remained the same! I am very confused now. Is it possible that this could be because I am in Europe and you are in the US, so that our points of view are rotated 90 degrees compared to each other?

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 Post subject: Re: Trolling in [field of study].
Post #25 Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 1:20 am 
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Araban wrote:
I'm not sure if there are a lot of physicists on this forum (though you really don't need to be one to see what's wrong with the first image), so here's one for the mathematicians (and oh, if you want to debunk something, use the hide tag so others can try to figure it out):

Image

Q.E.D. Image

as a formal mathmatician myself...let me try..

first..you should not divide both side of quadradic equation by X because you will lose one of the value.
second... you should not multiply both side of the equation by X because you will create false answer which created paradox in your example.

i would like to look at this more..but i am too busy and dont have time..
after i come back next month i will find exactly what is wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: Trolling in [field of study].
Post #26 Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 1:21 am 
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Sverre wrote:
I fail at physics. Reading the newspaper in front of the mirror I did not notice any flipping whatsoever. After some thought I decided to try to read the headline in the mirror instead. After turning the front page toward the mirror I noticed that the up-down directions had been flipped but the left-right directions remained the same! I am very confused now. Is it possible that this could be because I am in Europe and you are in the US, so that our points of view are rotated 90 degrees compared to each other?

Yeah, sorry, forgot to mention that: What I described is certainly only valid in the U.S. As you pointed out, in Europe the up-down direction will be flipped instead. And, by the way, in Asia both directions will be flipped.

Araban, thanks for a great link. However, don't you think it is kind of unfair to get help from a nobel prize winning Quantum-Electro-Dynamics physicist?? Q.E.D.

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Post #27 Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 1:25 am 
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Hi all - it's my first post; sadly I don't know that much about Go (although I hope to improve at that, and might eventually post about some Go-related stuff), but as I've spent the past 10 years studying Maths (and now have a PhD - not that that is needed to debunk this particular argument), it's fairly simple to say what the flaw is:

The original quadratic is fine, and has 2 roots, which are both of the complex cube roots of 1 (e^2pi*i/3 and e^-2pi*i/3). Both are also roots of x^3=1, of course, but that equation has a third root, 1. You can get from the original equation x^2+x+1=0 to x^3=1 just by multiplying it by x-1 on both sides. The fatal flaw is in going from x^3=1 to x=1 - this only works if you assume x has to be real, which isn't the case.

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Post #28 Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 1:45 am 
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Philosophy: Proof of predetermism

It's very clear to demonstrate without any doubt that we have no free will: The world is predetermined, and it doesn't matter what we chose to do, because our choice is already determined. Therefore, whenever we think we are making a choice, it's because it was already determined we would do so. Not making a choice also does not get around this, because the lack of a choice is a choice too, and that, likewise, has already been predetermined. As it is not possible to demonstrate that any choice or action is not predetermined, it must therefore be true.

Bottom line? Evidence based thinking demonstrates without a doubt that predeterminism is an irrefutable fact.

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Post #29 Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 1:49 am 
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GoCat wrote:
Araban wrote:
...but imagine how much better this idea would be with an infinite energy system:


you know, I just remembered... back when I was in school, maybe about 12 years old, a friend and I came up with what we thought was an excellent idea... We would design an electric car, but with a generator attached to the drive axle. This, naturally, would produce the electricity needed to power the electric motor. We thought maybe just one car battery to to get things started...

Okay, I'm happy to admit that I wasn't the brightest twelve-year-old. But the sad part of the story is that we presented the idea to our math teacher, and he thought it was worth a try.


In fairness, it may be interesting to know why he wanted to try it. I think the best form of teaching can be experimentation and discussion, and it's possible, rather than saying "it won't work", he was wanting you to find out that it didn't and then explore why yourselves... I was lucky enough to have had a few teachers like this.

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Post #30 Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 3:34 am 
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robinz wrote:
Hi all - it's my first post; sadly I don't know that much about Go (although I hope to improve at that, and might eventually post about some Go-related stuff), but as I've spent the past 10 years studying Maths (and now have a PhD - not that that is needed to debunk this particular argument), it's fairly simple to say what the flaw is:

The original quadratic is fine, and has 2 roots, which are both of the complex cube roots of 1 (e^2pi*i/3 and e^-2pi*i/3). Both are also roots of x^3=1, of course, but that equation has a third root, 1. You can get from the original equation x^2+x+1=0 to x^3=1 just by multiplying it by x-1 on both sides. The fatal flaw is in going from x^3=1 to x=1 - this only works if you assume x has to be real, which isn't the case.


I believe the original quadratic answer is flawed... to get x from x^2 you should take squareroot of both sides... that gives you:

x = +/- the squareroot of (-x-1)


unlike in the post which divides x into both sides...

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Post #31 Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 3:37 am 
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@Jordus
The dividing by x is perfectly valid, as x is nonzero. It's not standard for dealing with quadratics, but this does tell you that all solutions are of the form x = -1-1/x.

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Post #32 Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 3:42 am 
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Redundant wrote:
@Jordus
The dividing by x is perfectly valid, as x is nonzero. It's not standard for dealing with quadratics, but this does tell you that all solutions are of the form x = -1-1/x.


This is why I never claimed to be a mathmatician :P

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Post #33 Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 5:42 am 
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robinz wrote:
Hi all - it's my first post; sadly I don't know that much about Go (although I hope to improve at that, and might eventually post about some Go-related stuff), but as I've spent the past 10 years studying Maths (and now have a PhD - not that that is needed to debunk this particular argument), it's fairly simple to say what the flaw is:

The original quadratic is fine, and has 2 roots, which are both of the complex cube roots of 1 (e^2pi*i/3 and e^-2pi*i/3). Both are also roots of x^3=1, of course, but that equation has a third root, 1. You can get from the original equation x^2+x+1=0 to x^3=1 just by multiplying it by x-1 on both sides. The fatal flaw is in going from x^3=1 to x=1 - this only works if you assume x has to be real, which isn't the case.


You can't just multiply with (x-1) on both sides to get x^3=1, because then x=1 is a solution, making the previous step a multiplication by zero. That introduces more solutions.

As for the last step: I don't see a problem there. The only flaw it introduces is that it ignores the other solutions. If you interpret the original question as "find some x such that ..." instead of "find all x such that ...", that's a perfectly valid step.
Just assume the last step would have been from x^3=1 to x=(-1/2 + i sqrt(3)/2). That would be a correct solution to the original equation. Not all solutions, but a correct solution.
The actual error must be at an earlier point, where the equation changes from two solutions to three solutions.


EDIT:
D'oh. It's so easy ;)

The error must obviously be in the transition from the fourth line to the fifth. That's where the third solution (x=1) appears.

In that line, *one* x is substituted by another formula that contains another x. That in itself is not a problem. But now, you suddenly have two different xs in the equation, the one from the substitution and one "leftover" x. In the remaining steps, these different xs are mixed up. You have to substitute *both* the x and the x^2, then it all works out correctly ;)

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Post #34 Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 5:55 am 
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What is trolling?


I don't have any good pictures myself, but I like this site a lot: http://fakescience.tumblr.com/

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Post #35 Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 7:05 am 
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flOvermind wrote:
The error must obviously be in the transition from the fourth line to the fifth. That's where the third solution (x=1) appears.

In that line, *one* x is substituted by another formula that contains another x. That in itself is not a problem. But now, you suddenly have two different xs in the equation, the one from the substitution and one "leftover" x. In the remaining steps, these different xs are mixed up. You have to substitute *both* the x and the x^2, then it all works out correctly ;)


The preceding lines imply line 5, and line 5 is true. The error is that one-way implication is not equivalence.

Can you give me a precise definition of when substitution is safe and when it is unsafe? You claim that partial substitution is risky, can you prove that "full" substitution never introduces extraneous solutions?

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Post #36 Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 7:10 am 
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Very well, I will do my best.


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Post #37 Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 7:13 am 
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topazg wrote:
As it is not possible to demonstrate that any choice or action is not predetermined, it must therefore be true.


This is just trolling anyone who understands how basic reasoning works, not just philosophy. :razz:

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Post #38 Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 7:17 am 
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Araban wrote:
Image

Good thing nobody's started calling you on this one, or else you would be feeling the heat, no?

...I think I'm funny, sometimes.

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Post #39 Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 7:22 am 
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Monadology wrote:
topazg wrote:
As it is not possible to demonstrate that any choice or action is not predetermined, it must therefore be true.


This is just trolling anyone who understands how basic reasoning works, not just philosophy. :razz:


I know, I'm so disappointed no-one rose to this :P

(Even if just to nitpick the subject area ;))

Chew Terr wrote:
Good thing nobody's started calling you on this one, or else you would be feeling the heat, no?

...I think I'm funny, sometimes.


*Groan* :tmbup:

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Post #40 Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 8:14 am 
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Continuing on Araban's example
Thanks guys, I didn't see that there's no problem until you actually take a step (x^3 = 1 => x = 1) that depends on the solution being real.

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