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What is your favorite chess?
Chess (Western/International) 45%  45%  [ 30 ]
Shogi (Japanese chess) 30%  30%  [ 20 ]
Xiangqi (Chinese chess) 8%  8%  [ 5 ]
Other... 5%  5%  [ 3 ]
None 12%  12%  [ 8 ]
Total votes : 66
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 Post subject: Re: Western Chess, Xiangqi, or Shogi?
Post #41 Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 1:33 am 
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Xiangqi seems like a good casual chess game. The perks of a slower pace and limited movement make it a nice alternative to western chess while still being familiar enough (no capture mechanic like in shogi). I can see why experienced strategy players would prefer the other games though. It does come off as a sort of reigned-in western chess, even with the off-the-wall piece that is the cannon.


Last edited by Deglet_Nour on Mon Nov 21, 2016 1:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #42 Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 1:38 am 
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Quote:
Xiangqi seems like a good casual chess game. The perks of a slower pace and limited movement... to western chess...
Seems the other way around ? Each of the 16 xiangqi pieces is free to move from the start,
unlike in chess where 6 pieces (of one color) are blocked.

Wikipedia says xiangqi is slightly more complex.

Amateurs and pros may have different perspectives on the casualness. :)
moyoaji wrote:
moyoaji, how to type the chess characters ? :)

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 Post subject: Re: Western Chess, Xiangqi, or Shogi?
Post #43 Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 1:47 am 
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I think the fact that Elephants can't cross rivers, Horse can't leap over pieces and the Advisors (and General) having such limited movement options make the game quite a bit slower and less brutal than western chess. But again, it may be me speaking as a beginner in both games.

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Post #44 Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 12:45 am 
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EdLee wrote:
moyoaji, how to type the chess characters ? :)

Hello Ed! It's been a while.

I went to a unicode character site that lists them all and searched for "chess." http://unicode-table.com is an example. Then it's just copy and paste: ♕

Deglet_Nour wrote:
I think the fact that Elephants can't cross rivers, Horse can't leap over pieces and the Advisors (and General) having such limited movement options make the game quite a bit slower and less brutal than western chess. But again, it may be me speaking as a beginner in both games.

I've played some who are more experienced. It makes a world of difference. The game tends to be faster paced than Western chess once you know what you are doing. There isn't as much of a wind-up in the opening. Yes, pieces get positioned, but not to the extent that they do in Western chess. Without pawns in the way, pieces can quickly become powerful. The cannons can be surprisingly brutal if you aren't careful.

I'm surprised that Xiangqi would have a higher game complexity than Western chess, though, considering it has fewer pieces and the pieces do fewer things. Pawns can't promote to other pieces. Knights are more limited. As you said, there are pieces which cannot leave one half of the board. However, that really only increases the State-space Complexity, which is indeed higher for Western chess. The Xiangqi board is larger and it has some additional rules that make the stategy more involved (kings can never face across the board, for example).

Compared to go, however, all versions of chess are effectively the same. Go is so many orders of magnitude more complex that it only makes sense to compare it with chess games because those already are hard for us humans to wrap our heads around. From a distance, both look to be the same size, but chess is a big rock several meters away, while go is a mountain a kilometer off. And even those farthest up the mountain have hardly left its base...

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I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

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Post #45 Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 1:53 am 
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moyoaji wrote:
...

Compared to go, however, all versions of chess are effectively the same. Go is so many orders of magnitude more complex that it only makes sense to compare it with chess games because those already are hard for us humans to wrap our heads around. From a distance, both look to be the same size, but chess is a big rock several meters away, while go is a mountain a kilometer off. And even those farthest up the mountain have hardly left its base...


Heard this so many times. Should have gotten used to it by now, but I never seem to. "Go is so much better, for it is so much more complex etc" Oh please.


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Post #46 Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 3:46 am 
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Hi moyoaji, thanks.
moyoaji wrote:
I'm surprised that Xiangqi would have a higher game complexity than Western chess, though, considering it has fewer pieces
How do you mean ?
Both games have the same number of initial pieces per color: 16.
Chess has 6 different piece types, and xiangqi has 7. :)

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Post #47 Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2016 1:19 am 
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Anzu wrote:
Heard this so many times. Should have gotten used to it by now, but I never seem to. "Go is so much better, for it is so much more complex etc" Oh please.

I didn't say go was better, only that it is more complex, which is an objective fact. Being "better" is subjective. If, to you, more complexity is better, then you have drawn the conclusion yourself.

My use of metaphor to explain how much more complex go is does not imply that I am saying go is better. Plenty of people think mountain climbing is a frivolous pursuit not worth the risks. In that regard, perhaps I'm suggesting that go is a fool's errand? I'm not, but that interpretation makes just as much sense as yours.

Obviously, I really like chess, otherwise I wouldn't have bothered to start this thread 3 years ago. But I do acknowledge the fact, and it is a fact, that go is more complex. Do you argue that draughts (English checkers) isn't simpler than chess? To say it is simpler doesn't make it a bad game. Simplicity can be an admirable quality along with complexity. Neither is objectively better.

EdLee wrote:
Both games have the same number of initial pieces per color: 16.
Chess has 6 different piece types, and xiangqi has 7. :)

I forgot that the back row has 9 pieces in xiangqi. I counted the 7 front pieces in my head and then just added 8 for the back rank. I should have looked at a board, or given is a few more seconds of thought. Given there is a king and pawn in the center, there has to be an odd number of points across the board.
I remembered it has more piece types, but I'm not sure how much that helps with the game complexity, considering that the advisors are restricted to 5 points each. The elephants are each restricted to 7 points. The king to 9. Even a chess A or H pawn can be on up to 21 squares. The attacking pieces, especially the cannons and chariots, likely add the most to the game's complexity. That, and the larger board size.

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

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 Post subject: Re: Western Chess, Xiangqi, or Shogi?
Post #48 Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 3:33 am 
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Many Western chess and shogi players note that they do not understand the internal logic of xiangqi, they can not understand the criteria for choosing a move in this game. Xiangqi is the most mysterious game of all three versions. And one more obvious fact: Western chess players, trying to play xiangqi, note that xiangqi is much more interesting then chess.

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 Post subject: Re: Western Chess, Xiangqi, or Shogi?
Post #49 Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:28 am 
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I TRIED so hard to like Western/International chess. Couldn't do it. The game always seemed so stiff to me. I think part of it was how it was introduced to me as a kid in the U.S. Very dry, very little explanation, and a lack of friends to play with.

I've been curious about Xiangqi and Shogi ever since I learned about them a year ago. I was initially scared off because I was having a hard time remembering which pieces were which. Maybe I ought to give them another try.

I was also intrigued by a relative newcomer (2014) game called Onitama which seems like a simpler version of Chess that has an interesting move mechanic. Seems like it would prevent over-analysis and force the game into a much lighter, more reactionary game. Anyone here played this? Did you enjoy it, or was it too shallow?

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