It is currently Thu Jul 27, 2017 9:33 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 49 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

What is your favorite chess?
Chess (Western/International) 45%  45%  [ 30 ]
Shogi (Japanese chess) 30%  30%  [ 20 ]
Xiangqi (Chinese chess) 8%  8%  [ 5 ]
Other... 5%  5%  [ 3 ]
None 12%  12%  [ 8 ]
Total votes : 66
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Western Chess, Xiangqi, or Shogi?
Post #21 Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2016 6:16 am 
Dies in gote
User avatar

Posts: 62
Location: Missouri
Liked others: 1
Was liked: 10
KGS: Faro
For me its Go>International Chess/Xianqi>shogi

My ratings for these are different for most in this thread. I put Go first because it's my favorite game, and that will contradict what I'm about to say next.

The rest of the ratings are based not so much how I like them, but how likely I am to find someone willing to play. Living in the US most people know Chess, or at least the rules. I don't study Chess but I play it because sometimes someone will want to play. Xianqi is my second choice because it's the most similar to Chess and for someone who knows chess, very easy to pick up and play it the same you would International Chess with a movement variation. And unless you intend to actually study, that's how most people in the West will play, it's natural to try and use the game to already know as a base.
Shogi is a little too different. Learning the characters in Xianqi isn't that hard, but in Shogi you have to learn them, plus their promoted characters, plus keep track of which pieces are facing which way. There are also restrictions on where you can drop a captured piece. I don't see many people I know wanting to take the time to learn Shogi just to play one game, decided they don't like it and never play again.

So for me personally I play Go. Then if a friend wanted to play a game we can play Chess, or Xianqi if they are feeling adventurous. But for most people...I'll just grab Settlers of Catan or Lords of Waterdeep off the shelf and we can all be happy!

_________________
Lose 1,000 games? Challenge Accepted.


This post by Faro was liked by: Anzu
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Western Chess, Xiangqi, or Shogi?
Post #22 Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2016 2:58 pm 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 385
Liked others: 13
Was liked: 23
OGS: Saint Ravitt
One question about shogi and xiangqi: How difficult would a seasoned player find it to keep the different pieces strait without any kind of understanding of the languages that the symbols come from? As a serious western chess player, I would never, ever, ever mistake one piece for another. Knowing which piece is which is simply not intended to be an element of the game. I just wonder if this is a thing that English speaking shogi and xianqi players have to account for and deal with. I would imagine that it would actually become more difficult to keep them strait the better you get at the game because a strong player would have trained his eyes to place emphasis on the overall position rather than focusing on any one individual piece (that's how a western chess player sees the board anyways). I have to say, I can get pretty worked up over a loss due to a stupid blunder. If that blunder was due to simply mistaking one character for another than I might very well explode (and probably give up the game altogether). I personally love and appreciate that the staunton chess pieces are universally recognizable.

_________________
Thinking like a go player during a game of chess is like bringing a knife to a gun-fight. Thinking like a chess player during a game of go feels like getting knifed while you're holding a gun...

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Western Chess, Xiangqi, or Shogi?
Post #23 Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2016 3:36 pm 
Lives with ko
User avatar

Posts: 158
Liked others: 95
Was liked: 54
Joelnelsonb wrote:
One question about shogi and xiangqi: How difficult would a seasoned player find it to keep the different pieces strait without any kind of understanding of the languages that the symbols come from? As a serious western chess player, I would never, ever, ever mistake one piece for another. Knowing which piece is which is simply not intended to be an element of the game. I just wonder if this is a thing that English speaking shogi and xianqi players have to account for and deal with. I would imagine that it would actually become more difficult to keep them strait the better you get at the game because a strong player would have trained his eyes to place emphasis on the overall position rather than focusing on any one individual piece (that's how a western chess player sees the board anyways). I have to say, I can get pretty worked up over a loss due to a stupid blunder. If that blunder was due to simply mistaking one character for another than I might very well explode (and probably give up the game altogether). I personally love and appreciate that the staunton chess pieces are universally recognizable.


Well, some people use this set:


Attachments:
Screenshot_2016-03-20-18-33-57.png
Screenshot_2016-03-20-18-33-57.png [ 887.51 KiB | Viewed 1785 times ]
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Western Chess, Xiangqi, or Shogi?
Post #24 Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2016 3:37 pm 
Lives with ko
User avatar

Posts: 158
Liked others: 95
Was liked: 54
Joelnelsonb wrote:
One question about shogi and xiangqi: How difficult would a seasoned player find it to keep the different pieces strait without any kind of understanding of the languages that the symbols come from? As a serious western chess player, I would never, ever, ever mistake one piece for another. Knowing which piece is which is simply not intended to be an element of the game. I just wonder if this is a thing that English speaking shogi and xianqi players have to account for and deal with. I would imagine that it would actually become more difficult to keep them strait the better you get at the game because a strong player would have trained his eyes to place emphasis on the overall position rather than focusing on any one individual piece (that's how a western chess player sees the board anyways). I have to say, I can get pretty worked up over a loss due to a stupid blunder. If that blunder was due to simply mistaking one character for another than I might very well explode (and probably give up the game altogether). I personally love and appreciate that the staunton chess pieces are universally recognizable.


But I like this one better:


Attachments:
Screenshot_2016-03-20-18-34-17.png
Screenshot_2016-03-20-18-34-17.png [ 826.21 KiB | Viewed 1785 times ]
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Western Chess, Xiangqi, or Shogi?
Post #25 Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2016 10:29 pm 
Lives in sente
User avatar

Posts: 773
Location: Michigan, USA
Liked others: 143
Was liked: 216
Rank: KGS 1 kyu
Universal go server handle: moyoaji
Joelnelsonb wrote:
One question about shogi and xiangqi: How difficult would a seasoned player find it to keep the different pieces strait without any kind of understanding of the languages that the symbols come from?.

Not difficult at all.

It has been a very long time since I have made a mistake because I couldn't read a character on a piece. This is actually because of what you say: I think less about what the piece looks like and more about what it does. How can I confuse my knight for my rook? When I put my knight there it was attacking a pawn, a rook can't attack like that so having my rook there wouldn't make sense. Keeping the pieces straight isn't about reading them, it's about knowing what they are and what they do, just like in western chess.

As for Staunton pieces, keeping them separate is easy on a physical board, true, but what about electronic boards? Do you ever mix up what a 2-D king for a queen? They are both crowns after all. Or what about a bishop and a pawn? The only difference is that one is pointed with a line on it while the other is rounded at the top. For a player that didn't grow up playing western chess, those symbols would be just as confusing as the characters. Chess plays have trained ourselves to tell the difference and the same happens for shogi and xiangqi. After a while, it is just second nature. 馬 and mean the same thing to me now. As do 兵 and and 將 and . I could even play western chess using those symbols. The only problem is the lack of a queen in either game, but I suppose the advisor (士) or gold general (金) could work.

Anzu wrote:
But I like this one better:

I also prefer a non-simplified shogi set. I actually find it easier to tell the symbols apart, but that is probably because my personal set is not simplified.

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Western Chess, Xiangqi, or Shogi?
Post #26 Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2016 2:39 am 
Dies in gote

Posts: 47
Liked others: 7
Was liked: 5
Rank: JP 1d
In shogi the most likely confusion will arise in the promoted pieces, especially with some of the non standard "fonts". The more you play with the set, you will become accustomed. Here is an example:

http://www5b.biglobe.ne.jp/~goban/s1go1 ... roku2.html

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Western Chess, Xiangqi, or Shogi?
Post #27 Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 6:27 pm 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 385
Liked others: 13
Was liked: 23
OGS: Saint Ravitt
I wouldn't say I have any more trouble on a 2D board. In fact, I read an article recently talking about how players should limit internet play because most people find it easier than reading an actual board and using a crutch will make you weaker. I'll tell you one interesting practice that me and a player from my club enjoy doing: We place Go stones on all the starting positions instead of pieces and play without piece definition. This is a great way to reinforce positional pattern recognition and is one step below playing in your head.

_________________
Thinking like a go player during a game of chess is like bringing a knife to a gun-fight. Thinking like a chess player during a game of go feels like getting knifed while you're holding a gun...

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Western Chess, Xiangqi, or Shogi?
Post #28 Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 2:56 am 
Beginner

Posts: 7
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 3
Rank: KGS15kyu
When I read the comments, I often like to say: do not judge a book by its cover. Whether you like rules, shapes, boards or do not like, it is difficult to teach your characters or not difficult - the essence of the game is irrelevant. Since my childhood I played chess, I was a winner of the national championship among children. But then I discovered the oriental chess - shogi and xiangqi. I'm quite advanced in these games. Shogi gives a crazy sense of excitement, adrenaline. What attracted me to it in the beginning? I would like to answer the question, how to behave pieces, if they allow parachute. How will this affect the theory and strategy. At the same time such rules do not work in chess, because the pieces are too powerfull, and the pawn chains are too strong to support dropping well (like in crazyhouse e.g.).

Now, what may attract the curious chess researcher in xiangqi. In European chess chessmen serve to pawn chain. Push to win a pawn, exchange chess pieces, turn a pawn to a queen. The biggest formula. Xiangqi (translation is the game of pieces), this is the game of pieces indeed. Interestingly, in the absence of pawn chains and a minimum of pawns on the board, how the pieces interact and how they make shape of position. I want to say that it complicates the strategy of the game. So much so, that many chess players believe that there are no xiangqi strategy - tactics only. And this is a clear stereotype. Shogi and xiangqi are oriental chess, united by one important feature - orthogonal pawn, which is not connected to the pawn chain. In these games, pawn - it is not the soul of the game, the pieces are not in the service of pawns. This is their unique flavor and charm.

Of course, European chess distinguishes geometric beauty and splendor. Perfect symmetry and clarity. But the game can afford the luxury of such gothic just because the whole geometry determined by the pawn chain. In other circumstances it can not exist. Who wants to explore other conditions - welcome to the world of oriental chess. They're not better than chess, but not worse too. They are just different.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Western Chess, Xiangqi, or Shogi?
Post #29 Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 3:31 am 
Dies in gote

Posts: 47
Liked others: 7
Was liked: 5
Rank: JP 1d
One other difference GameTeacher might be that in Shogi, compared to Go, Chess and Xiangqi is the endgame isn't a simplification but often is a race to mate. That makes it so exciting and different from the other three games.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Western Chess, Xiangqi, or Shogi?
Post #30 Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 4:06 am 
Beginner

Posts: 7
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 3
Rank: KGS15kyu
LifeIn9x9 wrote:
One other difference GameTeacher might be that in Shogi, compared to Go, Chess and Xiangqi is the endgame isn't a simplification but often is a race to mate. That makes it so exciting and different from the other three games.


Yes, it brings some "animal" pleasure of the game. Other games bring other type of pleasure. For example I feel rational pleasure considering relatively simple xiangqi endgames. Incredible, that only few pieces can cause such profound sequences of moves!

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject:
Post #31 Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 4:22 am 
Judan
User avatar

Posts: 7483
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 273
Was liked: 1670
GD Posts: 312
Hi Anzu,

I like the simplified char. set in post 23,
especially on an iPhone 4S screen. :)
( And I can read all the Shogi kanjis no problem. :) )

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Western Chess, Xiangqi, or Shogi?
Post #32 Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 1:43 pm 
Beginner

Posts: 7
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 3
Rank: KGS15kyu
CutFirstThinkLater wrote:
As someone who hasn't grown up with any of these four but tried them all (I grew up playing Janggi) I guess I can cast a neutral vote, and to me it's definitely Shogi. Because of the 'capture and drop anywhere' rule its complexity level is almost on par with Go and far more dynamic than any other variant of its kind. No wonder it's been held in nearly the same high esteem as Go in Japan - a privilege its cousins in China and Korea couldn't enjoy.


Shogi is certainly beautiful, its status is high. However, it should be noted that the status of xiangqi and janggi is quite different in Korea and China. For last year top-earning professionals of Go and xiangqi in China were very close. In Korea, there are still a huge difference.


Last edited by Ludimagister on Wed Jun 22, 2016 9:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject:
Post #33 Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 2:17 pm 
Judan
User avatar

Posts: 7483
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 273
Was liked: 1670
GD Posts: 312
CutFirstThinkLater wrote:
{ Shogi's } complexity level is almost on par with Go
( my emphasis)
Sorry for the bump of an older post.

Interesting that a difference of ~10134 is considered "almost on par" --
complexity .

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Western Chess, Xiangqi, or Shogi?
Post #34 Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2016 1:07 am 
Dies in gote

Posts: 47
Liked others: 7
Was liked: 5
Rank: JP 1d
While the number of board positions is less than Go, wouldn't the number of possible game (records) be larger that Go, even considering various repetition rules for Shogi?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Western Chess, Xiangqi, or Shogi?
Post #35 Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2016 7:11 am 
Beginner

Posts: 7
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 3
Rank: KGS15kyu
LifeIn9x9 wrote:
While the number of board positions is less than Go, wouldn't the number of possible game (records) be larger that Go, even considering various repetition rules for Shogi?



There are more then 500 theoretically possible moves in the shogi endgame from the one position. Branching in the shogi endgame definitely more then branching of any stage of Go.


This post by Ludimagister was liked by: LifeIn9x9
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Western Chess, Xiangqi, or Shogi?
Post #36 Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 1:03 pm 
Lives with ko

Posts: 295
Location: Washington State
Liked others: 223
Was liked: 56
Rank: KGS13kyu
KGS: gotony
OGS: nghtstalker
I would love to learn Shogi, but only if I had several people in the area actually interested in playing it. From what I have read it is a fascinating game. At our small GO club we have a box of GO sets in there. If one looks there is also a tournament Chess set and an Elephant/Chinese chess set there also. I learned Chinese Chess years ago when I visited Taiwan as a teenager and bought a set. But the only place I can play if I choose is online. So like I always say GO is the best, but one can enjoy any of the other great fighting games, and for a change they are definitely very fun.

_________________
Walla Walla GO Club -(on FB)

We play because we enjoy the beauty of the game, the snap and feel of real stones, and meeting interesting people. Hope to see ya there! お願いします!

Anthony

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Western Chess, Xiangqi, or Shogi?
Post #37 Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 3:11 pm 
Dies in gote

Posts: 47
Liked others: 7
Was liked: 5
Rank: JP 1d
Grab the app "LionWars" for a clever introduction to the game, simplified and redesigned for kids. The app has enough English that you can play it online and learn some of the interesting combinations that dropping can bring to the game.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Western Chess, Xiangqi, or Shogi?
Post #38 Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 9:29 am 
Beginner

Posts: 7
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 3
Rank: KGS15kyu
We rightly noted the dignity of Shogi in this topic, but some players have asked any opinion about xiangqi. Why this game is so popular, even the most popular in the world. Obviously not only because China is overpopulated. For example, xiangqi is the game number one in Vietnam, much more popular then European chess, despite the fact that the Sports Committee of Vietnam is actively developing chess. There are really many things in xiangqi that do not exist in chess. And it's not just a Cannon.

There are two important concepts in xiangqi - of emptiness and blockade. 32 pieces (like in chess) fighting on the board, consisting of 90 points. Сoefficient of emptiness in xiangqi much higher than in chess and in shogi. In the absence of pawn chains, it enables unhindered invasion to the opponent's camp (already at the first move, if you want!). In shogi for such invasion there is dropping of pieces.
The second is blockade. In European chess only pawn can be blocked by other pawn or other piece. Thats why there are closed positions there. In shogi no one piece can be blocked so easily. But in xiangqi the concept of blockade is total. And this is the basis of the pieces` interaction on the xiangqi board. Elefant, Cannon and Knight can be blocked by any piece of opponent. Moreover Knight can be blocked by Knight and Cannon can be blocked by Cannon. Usually such type of encounter leads to pieces exchange in chess. But not in xiangqi. There is a big difference with blockade in two games: chess Pawn can be blocked only tightly, while xiangqi `pieces usually have 4 directions and its difficult to block it completely. Thats why xiangqi is generally more dynamic. At last but not at least, there is "edge blockade" in xiangqi and it happens much more often then in any other game. Because Advisors have only 5 points to move and 4 points from these are corner! Elefants have 7 points and 6 points from these are edge! King blocked in palace as well. The third blockade` premise is a very crowded Palace. Advisors and King usually limit each other.

Cannon in xiangqi - truly an amazing piece. For easy travel, it needs empty space, but for capture it needs a crowded line. That is why it is so organically fit into the overall picture of the game.

Pieces of xiangqi are very different, very unusual and indeed play on the different boards (like dark and light bishops in chess). When these parallel worlds come together, there is a very interesting systemic effect. Perhaps the popularity of the game can be explained by the surprise and the beauty of this effect.


This post by Ludimagister was liked by 2 people: Anzu, gamesorry
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Western Chess, Xiangqi, or Shogi?
Post #39 Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:35 pm 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 385
Liked others: 13
Was liked: 23
OGS: Saint Ravitt
How many moves does an average game of Shogi consist of? And are we talking "Chess moves" or "Go moves"? They are different.

_________________
Thinking like a go player during a game of chess is like bringing a knife to a gun-fight. Thinking like a chess player during a game of go feels like getting knifed while you're holding a gun...

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Western Chess, Xiangqi, or Shogi?
Post #40 Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 12:18 am 
Beginner

Posts: 7
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 3
Rank: KGS15kyu
Joelnelsonb wrote:
How many moves does an average game of Shogi consist of? And are we talking "Chess moves" or "Go moves"? They are different.


Somewhere in one and a half times longer than an average game of chess.

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 49 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group