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 Post subject: Playing on Fox following the Leela Zero Opening Gospel
Post #1 Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 11:51 am 
Judan

Posts: 6487
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Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
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Hi all,

I made a youtube video on the Leela Zero Opening Gospel (which I introduced in text form on this forum at https://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=17555):



Then I played a game on the Fox server whilst I commented, putting these ideas into practice. Starting off at 3 dan I'm rather a sandbagger, but from other channels the sandbag and comment format seems quite popular as an educational style, so let me know if you like it and any other feedback. I'm still a bit of a noob in video editing etc so no fancy graphics yet.



You can subscribe to my channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrmO1N ... 5SXZDvX2w/ to be notified of new videos, hopefully you won't have to wait a year!


This post by Uberdude was liked by 5 people: Marcel Grünauer, serbes, SoDesuNe, topazg, zac
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 Post subject: Re: Playing on Fox following the Leela Zero Opening Gospel
Post #2 Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:31 pm 
Honinbo

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Tygem: 커비라고해
I enjoyed this video - I decided to subscribe because of it. Thanks for making it.

One thing that stuck out to me was the nuance in identifying urgent moves, which you've already identified in your gospel:
Quote:
In general, play the following classes of opening moves in order from top to bottom. There will of course be exceptions, notably when there is an urgent situation involving weak groups or when there is some local sequence with high temperature happening, but once things quieten down these principles will help you find the next biggest move. The negative numbers are common examples of these urgent local situations.


But I didn't think about it much until I saw you putting this into action. In particular, this position:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The question that comes to mind is whether it's urgent to play 'a'. And if so, how urgent? Is it as urgent as a -3, where your 3-4 is being pressed?

It'd seem difficult to find a general principle that tells us the degree of urgency in a local position, and how it relates to the gospel. But for those "normal" situations where there doesn't seem to be something unusual happening, it seems like a decent heuristic to just follow the list.

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 Post subject: Re: Playing on Fox following the Leela Zero Opening Gospel
Post #3 Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:03 am 
Judan

Posts: 6487
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 387
Was liked: 3565
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
Kirby wrote:
I enjoyed this video - I decided to subscribe because of it. Thanks for making it.

One thing that stuck out to me was the nuance in identifying urgent moves, which you've already identified in your gospel:
Quote:
In general, play the following classes of opening moves in order from top to bottom. There will of course be exceptions, notably when there is an urgent situation involving weak groups or when there is some local sequence with high temperature happening, but once things quieten down these principles will help you find the next biggest move. The negative numbers are common examples of these urgent local situations.


But I didn't think about it much until I saw you putting this into action. In particular, this position:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The question that comes to mind is whether it's urgent to play 'a'. And if so, how urgent? Is it as urgent as a -3, where your 3-4 is being pressed?

It'd seem difficult to find a general principle that tells us the degree of urgency in a local position, and how it relates to the gospel. But for those "normal" situations where there doesn't seem to be something unusual happening, it seems like a decent heuristic to just follow the list.


If my 3-4 was being pressed, I'd answer that in a heartbeat over hane at a:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . . , 1 . . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


You can also deduce this from the gospel: it rates blocking after a 3-3 invasion at -2, lower priority than answering press at -3. That's a 1 stone vs 1 stone position, where whoever plays first takes a 2-1 advantage. It's a general principle that as more stones are added to a position it gets less important (2 vs 1 is a bigger advantage than 11 vs 10, though exceptions apply like if its a deciding liberty in a semeai!) and here the hane at a turns a 2-1 advantage into a 3-1. So that should be lower priority than the original class -2 move white should have played of blocking.

The choice in the game was hane at a versus a class 4 3-3 invasion (the gospel had already told me that was bigger than answering one of the 4-4 approaches). If there was a class 1 empty corner available, I think I would have taken that over hane:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


A class 2 shimari or approach at b/c, not sure, this seems like a difficult decision and probably all three choices are okay. So my feeling is the hane is somewhere around class 2 in the priority order. But as the hane is a reverse sente, I think it'd take it, and because there are 2 class 2 moves remaining I can still get tedomari.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . c . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This post by Uberdude was liked by: topazg
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 Post subject: Re: Playing on Fox following the Leela Zero Opening Gospel
Post #4 Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:18 am 
Honinbo

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Uberdude wrote:
It's a general principle that as more stones are added to a position it gets less important (2 vs 1 is a bigger advantage than 11 vs 10, though exceptions apply like if its a deciding liberty in a semeai!) and here the hane at a turns a 2-1 advantage into a 3-1.


I do believe that I was the first to articulate that principle several years ago. :) Along with the principle that the greater the difference between the number of stones of different colors, the less urgent a position becomes. Both principles have numerous exceptions, OC. ;)

Edit: I did not discover those principles through any deep insight. I was making a table to show some statistical results of pro games, and started off with Black stones vs. White stones. But then looking at the table, I realized that it made more sense to organize the results in terms of Black stones + White stones vs. Black stones - White stones. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Playing on Fox following the Leela Zero Opening Gospel
Post #5 Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:03 pm 
Judan

Posts: 6487
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 387
Was liked: 3565
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
I've uploaded a few more videos. Game 2 was all going well until a big woopsy in the middle so a rather disappointing loss:



A review with Lizzie, hopefully this not only has useful Go tips but also how to review with Lizzie tips:



Game 3 more normal Fox 3d fare:



This post by Uberdude was liked by: Kirby
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 Post subject: Re: Playing on Fox following the Leela Zero Opening Gospel
Post #6 Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 7:28 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 9071
Liked others: 1529
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KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
I enjoyed watching. Game 2 capturing race was a pity. Nonetheless, good videos.

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