(From: http://www.insight.co.kr/newsRead.php?ArtNo=62209 and several other articles)

On the 17th Lee Sedol submit a letter of resignation to the Korean pro association, along with his brother, Lee Sanghun. All 320 Korean pros are a part of this association.

Apparently, Lee Sedol had an issue with the uniform deduction that the association takes out from all players. There is about a 3~5% deduction related to members' games that they take out. So players that win a lot of money pay a larger contribution to this amount.

Despite this, Lee Sedol has the intention to continue activity as a pro go player. It seems that he just wants to resign from that association.

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be immersed

I guess some people don't even like a flat tax.

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The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

The association is in a bit of a pickle.

If they agree to let Lee Sedol quit the association and keep playing games as a pro without paying that fee, other pros may follow suit - why would they want to keep paying that 3-5% if Lee Sedol doesn't have to.

OTOH, if they put some restrictions on the games Lee Sedol can play, fans and/or sponsors could object - it's Lee Sedol, afterall.

Lee Sedol had some friction with this same organization prior to taking a leave from playing games in 2009. This time, I guess his intention is to keep playing games, while quitting that association.

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be immersed

So it seems Lee is planning to win the Ing cup.

Does anyone know what's the equivalent 'flat tax' from the China Go Association ?
Is it (much) higher than 3-5% ? Order of 30 - 50% ?

FYI the marginal income tax rate in South Korea for earnings over 80 million Won (£46k, $67k) is 35%.

3-5% doesn't strike me as too excessive, though I can see for a top pro with big winnings it becomes a lot. But I think that's part of the deal of pro associations: they exist to support and nurture pros and when you join when you are at the beginning of your career they are taking a bet on you: you might end up a failure and not win anything, or you might be a huge success, and the later will subsidise the former. Does anyone know what Lee's objections were, or if he proposed a different system that was rejected? Perhaps he wanted a cap, or it to only apply to games in Korea? I seem to recall his previous fracas was related to his earnings from playing in the Chinese league? Coming after the KBA involvement with organising the AlphaGo match though does seem a bit off...

That is a good point. I understand he needs to pay a percentage of his income to the association as an obligation. On the other hand, there is a cap to the benefit he could enjoy from the association when he reaches retirement. So he is effectively subsidize other players, which may appear quite unfair.

(From this article: http://news.chosun.com/site/data/html_d ... 00320.html)

Basically, Lee Sedol's position seems to be that this Korean Pro Association is just a friendly organization, and there is no real legal requirement for him to be a part of it. The Hanguk Kiwon seems to have had some connection with this Korean Pro Association since it was much smaller with just like 20 or 30 pros.

Anyway, Lee Sedol's complaint is this 3 to 5% cut that happens for all pros, where all pros equally get 40,000,000 won for retirement, and it didn't seem fair. Combined with the fact that participation in this organization was a prerequisite for participating in some tournaments, he thought it was an unnecessary burden. Lee Sedol admitted that a law suit might result.

It seems that he finds this organization, which all Korean pros are currently a part of, to be a burden to Korean pros in general.

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be immersed

In the same article I quoted above, Lee Sedol mentioned he is willing to pay 10% for foreign tournaments.

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be immersed

Ah, so is this organisation from which he is resigning not the same as the Hankuk Kiwon (and is that what we call the KBA = Korean Baduk Association?). What is the organisation that gives out pro ranks? What is the organisation whose boss appeared at the AlphaGo match ceremony to give them their honouray 9p? Do we need an org chart? Get the flipboard!

I do not know the details, but it could easily be fair if Lee agreed to proportional fees at the beginning of his career. You have a cohort of young pros who face an uncertain future. A setup by which they pool a certain percentage of their winnings for retirement, most of which will be paid by the big winners, is fair, as they do not know who those winners will be. Without such guarantees it would be more difficult to get young people to become pros.

Edit: Let me underscore what everybody knows. Baduk is one of those professions where the monetary payoff for differences in ability is not proportional to those differences, but is concentrated at the top. The winnings of the average pro (the median) is significantly less than the average winnings (the mean).

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

What is a 'foreign tournament'? Does that include the Chinese league? Lee in the past had dispute with the same organization regarding his earnings from China.

On the face of it it seems rather selfish of Lee to object to this "fee" payment. As Bill points out, at the beginning of their careers pros, nor anyone else, knows which ones will become big prize winners. Without some source of income at the start people would not choose to be pros. I suspect the weaker pros who do not win a lot of prize money are also the pros who most support and teach the amateur world in Korea, the source of new pros.

Well, I don't know the details of how the current system is structured that well, but from the article:


My feeling is that he wants to keep following whatever requirements and policies the Hanguk Kiwon has, including rules they have for taking a cut from tournaments hosted in other countries.

But he wants to do away with this 3~5% cut from this Korean Pro association.

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be immersed

Your point about getting young people to become pros is fair.

Regarding an agreement to pay fees, part of the problem seems to be that this organization is a "friendly organization", without a formal legal agreement that pros have to be a part of it.

In the articles of association for he actual Hanguk Kiwon, they have a blurb that formally describes the relationship with the association, saying that the organization is there for the development of dignity and improving the Go ability of affiliated professionals.

Lee Sedol says that, like talent and other similar organizations, pros are free to participate or quit from this informal friendly organization.

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be immersed

Does he pay another cut of his winnings to the Hankuk Kiwon?

There are a couple of statements here that I find questionable.

- First, that players voluntarily agree to something when they turn pro. Of course the power is not evenly distributed and there is nothing voluntary about the agreement. I don't recall how old Lee Sedol was when he qualified but he was a kid. The old lags at the pro association said, "Congratulations kid. Now sign right here if you really want to be a pro!"

- Second, that there is a big random mixer run by the old, weak pros that takes in thousands of kids, trains them for free, and discovers along the way who has talent. Nonsense! The Go schools in Korea are commercial. Parents pay for their kids to attend in hopes that they can win through. In most cases it is quickly apparent who has talent and who doesn't. No one is giving away their work without compensation. And generally I imagine the parents want the best pros to train their kids rather than the also rans.

- Monetary payoff for differences in ability is not proportional to those differences? (Frankly this is a shocking statement coming from Bill!) The exact opposite is the case. The proportions are set out in writing for each and every tournament (note the proportions are not linear). However, the measurement of ability is done via winners and losers in head to head competition within each tournament. It is not done through some after-the-fact statistical aggregation of results and therefore the monetary payoff is not proportional to such alternative measures. It would be interesting to see a list of professions where people think that monetary payoffs are in linear proportion to ability - I can't think of any.

Just to be clear, I think Lee Sedol is a jerk to act this way. It is nothing new in his case. He has played the role of prima donna throughout his career. But we can quickly match him with a list of similar figures from other sports and entertainment industries, really from all walks of life. So I will continue to enjoy his Go and continue to shake my head at his behavior away from the board.

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Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21

I'm not sure on the specifics of what he pays to the Hankuk Kiwon.

Also, somewhat related, Lee Sedol mentioned the possibility of starting up a new association to replace this one. Other pros, however, seem hesitant to leave the existing association.

In other news [1], Lee Sedol just won the finals of the Maxim Coffee Cup, and the head of this organization he wants to quit from was there at the award ceremony. They appear to be on friendly terms, and are planning on having dinner together. The head of that association says he plans to discuss Lee Sedol's retirement letter with Lee Sedol. Regarding Lee Sedol's win, Lee Sedol was asked about whether his loss to AlphaGo had put pressure on him. Lee Sedol replied that in the end, many supported him, and thanks to that support, he was able to win the title.

He promised from now on to "work harder to play awesome/cool baduk".

[1] http://www.newsis.com/ar_detail/view.ht ... &pID=10500

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be immersed

Lee pays portion of all his winning to hanguk kiwon.

for those go players who think 3~5 % is not much... please send 3% of your earning to my bank account.
Korean baduk association is private organization (gathering is better term because they don't do anything) started by few professionals long time ago.
now number of professionals are over 300 and money collected are increasing and used to pay few who claim that they work hard to promote baduk.
Lee tried to change that culture but was not successful. Now he is executing what he planned for long time. The sole purpose of his action is to change that corrupt culture.

[admin] Political comment removed. -JB [/admin]

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"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
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Sure, if you promise to give me a pension of £26k per year when I retire!* That's a much better deal than my current pension/tax arrangements.

*Is that what this cut of winnings funds? I still need a lot more clarification before reaching a conclusion here.

[admin] Quoted political comment removed. -JB [/admin]