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 Post subject: Re: Announcing GoReviewPartner - v0.9 (supporting AQ)
Post #141 Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 7:30 am 
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pnprog wrote:
You can the indication below the graph: "The computer believes it's own move win rate would be 17.76pp higher." Here, 17.76pp means 17.76 percentage point. In this example, the game move win rate was 47.97%, and the computer own move win rate is 47.97% + 17.76pp = 65.73%

Is that what you need?


Thank you! That is exactly what i needed. Sorry, i simply did not notice the words below the graph before asking the question.

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 Post subject: Re: Announcing GoReviewPartner - v0.9 (supporting AQ)
Post #142 Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:36 pm 
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Caesura wrote:
Sorry, i simply did not notice the words below the graph before asking the question.
No problem, I think I need to put more work into the documentation as well !

I just started adding support for Leela Zero this morning (I am currently waiting for an analysis to complete). This is pretty straightforward because it behaves much like Leela, just a bit less complex in fact (for instance, no book moves to deal with). I will start uploading files on github today for those of you who want to try without waiting for the "official" release.

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 Post subject: Re: Announcing GoReviewPartner - v0.9 (supporting AQ)
Post #143 Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:33 am 
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I just pushed the modifications for Leela Zero support on Github.

Then I used Leela Zero to review one of her self-play games and I must say I am amazed to see how far she has gone already. Particularly, I can see she has find out by herself several of our human josekis (GRP makes it easy to see her follow up for different variations of the same joseki).

One caveat is that at the moment, Leela Zero is providing informations for a lot of possible moves. Like 55 possible moves for the game first move... GRP labels the variation using alphabet letters, so when the number of variations exceeds 26...

Here are the different possible moves for the game last move:
Attachment:
move287.png
move287.png [ 107.43 KiB | Viewed 2779 times ]

As you can see, too much information make it very hard to understand anything. And it makes the RSGF file pretty heavy.

I think I will have to add an option to limit the number of variation on display, while leaving the variation inside the SGF file.

But still, I am really impressed by Leela Zero!

=== EDIT ===
My todo list before official v.10, let me know if you have ideas
  • Add option to limit the number of variation to record during analysis
  • Add option to limit the number of variation to display during review
  • Add an option to add the complete command line of the bot as a comment in the RSGF file (useful to track Leela Zero weights file version)
  • Try and implement a work around to allow Ray (and AQ?) to undo a move during manual play
  • I need to fix a bug that appears when running the analysis of the giant seki games
  • Highlight the game current move on the charts
  • [Maybe for v.11]Add basic foundation to add additional languages
  • [Maybe for v.11]See how to make better use of SGF private properties to reduce the size of the RSGF file
  • [Maybe for v.11]See what change are needed to have GRP run on both python 2 and python 3

Also, I have been thinking of a new feature for v.11, something like "Live analysis":
Basically, a training session would looks like this for me:
  • 1/ Play a game against Leela
  • 2/ Perform the analysis of the game immediately afterwards (so I have to take a break while waiting for the analysis)
  • 3/ Review the analysis
  • 4/ Repeat from 1/
Indeed, more and more player are practising against Leela or others bots now. Problem for me is that the review takes ages on my slow computer. So I am thinking of introducing a way to play against the bot, while at the same time, performing the analysis, somehow "in the background". Then at the end of the game, the analysis is immediately ready to start the review:
  • So when it's the bot to play, GRP gets the data at the same time the bot is playing
  • When it's the player to play, GRP ask the bot to perform the analysis for your move in the background

Such feature could be extended to be used during game recording. Let's say you serve as game recorder during a Go Congress, then you input the moves of both players inside GRP, while GRP is running a Leela analysis in the background. At the end of the game, you got the SGF file and the RSGF ready and can perform a quick review with both players. Of course, the current state of the analysis would be available at whatever time during the game for you to check ("tell me Leela, who is wining that game?").

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 Post subject: Re: Announcing GoReviewPartner - v0.9 (supporting AQ)
Post #144 Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:18 am 
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pnprog wrote:
*Add option to limit the number of variation to record during analysis.
*Highlight the game current move on the charts.
*Also, I have been thinking of a new feature for v.11, something like "Live analysis": performing the analysis, somehow "in the background". Then at the end of the game, the analysis is immediately ready to start the review.
These are my favorites so far.

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 Post subject: Re: Announcing GoReviewPartner - v0.10 (supporting Leela Zer
Post #145 Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:28 am 
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Hi everybody!

I had the opportunity to watch the AlphaGo documentary on Youtube, then subsequently had a strong motivational boost to work on GRP !

So here come version 0.10 ! The main change is that support for Leela Zero has been added.

From last time to do list:
Quote:
  • Add option to limit the number of variation to record during analysis [Done]
  • Add option to limit the number of variation to display during review [Done]
  • Add an option to add the complete command line of the bot as a comment in the RSGF file (useful to track Leela Zero weights file version) [Done]
  • Try and implement a work around to allow Ray (and AQ?) to undo a move during manual play [Done] In fact, the latest AQ 2.1.1 (released yesterday) has an issue with undoing moves, so this work around came very handy
  • I need to fix a bug that appears when running the analysis of the giant seki games [Done] Another user came into the same bug by the way, so glad I fixed that
  • Highlight the game current move on the charts [Done]
  • [Maybe for v.11]Add basic foundation to add additional languages [Done] I also added the French translation to GRP *. I am looking for help to add additional translations, please let me know if you are interested.
  • [Maybe for v.11]See how to make better use of SGF private properties to reduce the size of the RSGF file [To be done]
  • [Maybe for v.11]See what change are needed to have GRP run on both python 2 and python 3 [Cancelled] When the time is right, I will totally move GRP to python 3


* that awkward moment when I realise I have not idea how to translate what I wrote in English into my native language...


I also receive a lot of feedback on GitHub, so here a few other modifications done for v.10:
  • Specifying a time per move is not mandatory any more for Leela and LZ. The setting can be left blank, and then Leela will decide by herself (or using the playout limit from the command line)
  • Added an option to stop the analysis if the bot proposes to resign
  • Bugs fixes (for chart display, fuzzy parameters, display on MacOS, resizing on higher screen resolution...)
  • Added automatic answer and self play possibility for the bots during review
  • Some more candy eyes change to the UI
  • Images (gobans and graphs) are now saved as PNG, not Postscript (it might not work on second monitor on some Windows 8.1, let me know)
  • Last stone played is now marked with a circle (not a delta)

Documentation has been updated. (Maybe you will need to refresh the page with F5)

For the download, as usual:
For next version, I will implement the "Live analysis" I mentioned above. It should be a lot of work, but I will have time in February.

But then, starting from March, I expect to have much less free time for this project :(
Anyway, the next version might (finally) be the v1.0, because I don't see much new feature to add. Maybe v1.1, v1.2, v1.3 will be released only for new bot support, new translation available and bug fixes.

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Last edited by pnprog on Sat Feb 17, 2018 7:32 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Announcing GoReviewPartner - v0.10 (supporting Leela Zer
Post #146 Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:11 am 
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I've recently started using this and I have to say it's a very nice and useful tool.

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 Post subject: Re: Announcing GoReviewPartner - v0.10 (supporting Leela Zer
Post #147 Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:47 am 
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Thanks! Great as always :)

Is there a way to put evaluations in "Open position" window? So when we analyze a move from current position we can have its evaluation.

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 Post subject: Re: Announcing GoReviewPartner - v0.10 (supporting Leela Zer
Post #148 Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:21 am 
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johnsmith wrote:
Is there a way to put evaluations in "Open position" window? So when we analyze a move from current position we can have its evaluation.
I am planning to add a small analysis feature in the "Open position" windows, but only something simple to ask Leela (or AQ/Ray/...) what about the winrate of the position. At least, one can quickly compare different variations outcomes.

But not the complete variations and data. At the moment, my code is just too messy for that (and it's so embarrassing to thinking about all those people looking at in on github :oops: ). But it would be a cool feature yes, so maybe in the future.

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 Post subject: Re: Announcing GoReviewPartner - v0.10 (supporting Leela Zer
Post #149 Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:40 pm 
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pnprog wrote:
I am planning to add a small analysis feature in the "Open position" windows, but only something simple to ask Leela (or AQ/Ray/...) what about the winrate of the position. At least, one can quickly compare different variations outcomes.
Of course. It is just to have a simple comparison in this window ;)
pnprog wrote:
and it's so embarrassing to thinking about all those people looking at in on github :oops: ).
I wouldn't say that :) Plus you're the first and the only to implement these ideas!

And yes, I'm already using LZ as new networks are getting stronger rapidly.

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 Post subject: Re: Announcing GoReviewPartner - v0.10 (supporting Leela Zer
Post #150 Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:03 am 
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Hello,

Mac OSX 10.12 here. I tested successfully GRP V0.10 with the following engines:
- leela 0.11
- leela-zero 0.11
- gnugo 3.8

As expected it was unfortunately not possible to build Ray and AQ on Mac OS.

Leela and gnugo already fully meet my needs :) . Thanks again ! :clap:

(note: for the engines which are not used, it is necessary to fill in the command line in the engine settings to gain access to the sgf analysis. Any directory path should make it.)

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 Post subject: Re: Announcing GoReviewPartner - v0.10 (supporting Leela Zer
Post #151 Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:53 am 
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johnsmith wrote:
And yes, I'm already using LZ as new networks are getting stronger rapidly.
I don't cease to be amazed at LZ rapid progress :)

pleiade67 wrote:
Hello,

Mac OSX 10.12 here. I tested successfully GRP V0.10 with the following engines:
- leela 0.11
- leela-zero 0.11
- gnugo 3.8

As expected it was unfortunately not possible to build Ray and AQ on Mac OS.

Leela and gnugo already fully meet my needs :) . Thanks again ! :clap:
Thanks for the feedback, MAc Os is a platform I cannot test by myself.

pleiade67 wrote:
(note: for the engines which are not used, it is necessary to fill in the command line in the engine settings to gain access to the sgf analysis. Any directory path should make it.)
Normally, at least one bot should have a "non empty" command line to "unlock" the sgf analysis. Then only the bots with command line will appear in the selection list. At least this is the way it work on Linux/Windows. (By the way, I discovered and registered this month on go-on forum, and then took notice that we are from the same country :))

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 Post subject: Re: Announcing GoReviewPartner - v0.10 (supporting Leela Zer
Post #152 Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 9:14 am 
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Yeah, that's right. :D I even advertised your program on the Go On forum! It deserves to be widely known ! :clap:

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 Post subject: Re: Announcing GoReviewPartner - v0.10 (supporting Leela Zer
Post #153 Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:15 pm 
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pleiade67 wrote:
Leela and gnugo already fully meet my needs
This puzzles me; Leela is certainly very helpful - but what do you get out of GnuGo? :scratch:

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 Post subject: Re: Announcing GoReviewPartner - v0.10 (supporting Leela Zer
Post #154 Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 8:49 pm 
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djhbrown wrote:
pleiade67 wrote:
Leela and gnugo already fully meet my needs
This puzzles me; Leela is certainly very helpful - but what do you get out of GnuGo? :scratch:

GnuGo has good life and death basics, where bots likes Leela sometime still have blatant weakness.

A recent example is this problem posted on reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/baduk/comments/7si2hp/a_go_problem_easy_for_you_often_impossible_for_ai/ no big deal for GnuGo, but apparently impossible to solve for those strong MTCS programs.

In my case, although I can beat GnuGo consistently, I still use it for review, to check out life and death situations as well as yose. So that means that in GRP, I won't use it for the analysis, but I will use it in review ("open position" mode). GnuGo plays to maximize the score, not the winning probability, so when a life and death situation appears on the board (or similar with yose), GnuGo will just go for the kill, while MCTS bots are happy to let the group live if it maintain a good winning rate, so they will tenuki and you don't know it the group could have been killed.

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 Post subject: Re: Announcing GoReviewPartner - v0.10 (supporting Leela Zer
Post #155 Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:03 am 
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pnprog wrote:
GnuGo has good life and death basics
really?! from having looked at its code, i wouldn't have expected that. that was awhile back, so i can only report general impressions, which were that it was a pretty hit-and-miss grab-bag of ad hoc heuristics. but i suppose if its search area were constrained to, say, one corner, it should be able to follow enough paths to find a solution to tsumego problems.

you have used it to help you; do you recall any specific examples where it did so and can you say what you learned from those? maybe a note in the "what helped you improve?" thread in Beginners?

i remember looking at some tsumego problems 40 years ago, and thinking that they were so artificial as to be useless. however, i have to confess that these days life-and-death is one of my weak points :)

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 Post subject: Re: Announcing GoReviewPartner - v0.10 (supporting Leela Zer
Post #156 Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:11 am 
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Hi!
I just want to give a quick update on the work in progress for the "Live analysis" feature.

So far so good, adding the feature appears to be suspiciously easy: I did not have to break to much existing things in GRP to make it fit into the existing code, it fact it pushed me to clarify my code and things that what not so clear to me until now (in term of code architecture) are starting to make sense. I guess I must have graduated to SDK in term of python programming :lol:

So here is a screen-shot during a live analysis game:
Attachment:
live2.png
live2.png [ 53.63 KiB | Viewed 2308 times ]
The analysis is ready to open at any time, which is pretty cool, as you can quickly check how is the game going on, and resign eventually if you are already loosing too much.

So here is what the setting panel looks like:
Attachment:
live0.png
live0.png [ 24.23 KiB | Viewed 2308 times ]
Attachment:
live1.png
live1.png [ 29.72 KiB | Viewed 2308 times ]
First step is to choose what bot will be used for the analysis. Second step is to choose who will be playing for black and white.
  • If black and white are selected as "Human" then it becomes more like a "spectator mode", and it's up to you to enter the moves of both color one by one. This might be useful for people making a live game commentary.
  • There is the possibility to use the same bot instance that performs the analysis as your opponent. In that case, the game and the analysis proceed at the same time.
  • One can choose to have the same bot instance that performs the analysis to play for both colors. In that case, in becomes a self commented self game. Might be interesting to use this to check out latest progress of Leela Zero.

In case both black and white are played by bot, then there is a button available to pause the game.

Then, in case a different bot that the one used for analysis plays as black or white (or both), then there is an option to avoid overlap thinking time. There are some case where overlap thinking does not matter:
  • One bot mainly uses CPU and the other mainly uses GPU
  • The bot thinking time is limited by a number of playout
  • The bot is actually running on another computer, sort of GTP over the network (must be common at Deepmind).
In other case, it might be better to ensure the 2 (or 3) bots get to think at a different time.
In such case, the playing bot is given priority over the analysing bot, the later waiting for the human to play to proceed on the analysis.

The two features I still need to add are:
  • Possibility to undo one or more move during a game
  • Possibility to restrict the analysis to only black or white

The issue I have at the moment is regarding the bots settings. GRP currently proposes 2 settings:
  • One for the bot to use during analysis (typically with a long thinking time)
  • One for the bot to use during review, in the "open position" panel (typically with a shorter thinking time).

Now, for the live analysis, I would be nice to have black and white bots having a shorter thinking time, while the analysis bot keeps a long thinking time.
But in case one want to use the analysis bot as either black bot or white bot, then it would be nice to have it to play with a shorter thinking time, even better, the possibility to choose.

Still, I don't want to have a third or fourth setting possibility for each bot, as it's quickly becoming too confusing, and requires to much work to set up.

So in the end, I will probably propose only 2 settings per bots:
  • One long thinking time, that will be use mainly for the analysis
  • One short thinking time, that will be use mainly during review, and as black or white during live game

Then I should add the possibility to select what "Profile" to use in each case. Something like this :)

I mentioned above the potential to use GRP as an aid for live game commentary. In fact, if I am not mistaken, DeepZen is increasingly used by commentators for official games. I also believe software like GRP could be of some help for those of us who create video content on Youtube or Twitch, so after this live analysis feature is completed and released, I will spend some time thinking about what could make GRP useful for such use case. Let me know is you have some idea.

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 Post subject: Re: Announcing GoReviewPartner - v0.10 (supporting Leela Zer
Post #157 Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:06 pm 
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This live analysis - it means someone can regularly watch a pro game through GRP viewer and come back after the game and review saved variations? Or moves can be analyzed directly, on the spot? Or both? :)

In source files I changed direction of mouse scroll when viewing variations. Because I like normal scroll for going forward with moves. It's just a personal preference.
Is it possible to set 'real game sequence deepness'>=0 instead of just >=1? Because maybe someone doesn't want to see the next move on the left screen? I didn't know how to change this. The last version in which this worked was v0.8.

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 Post subject: Re: Announcing GoReviewPartner - v0.10 (supporting Leela Zer
Post #158 Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:18 pm 
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johnsmith wrote:
This live analysis - it means someone can regularly watch a pro game through GRP viewer and come back after the game and review saved variations? Or moves can be analyzed directly, on the spot? Or both? :)

Let say you are watching the 3rd game of the LG Cup final (Iyama Yauta vs Xie Erhao) on TV, then you enter the moves they play "in real time", and in the background, Leela is analysing the moves one by one as they are coming. Shortly after they play their first moves, you will see the "Start review" button appearing on the screen. This button open the classic RSGF file review interface. The review will only contain, let's say, the game 5 first moves that you entered already, and only the 3 first moves will have Leela's variations. The graphs will have data only for those 3 moves.

As the game progress and you enter more moves and Leela crunches more calculations, the review will contain more "data". On the screen-shot above, you can see "Game currently at move 21" and "Analysis currently at move 7". So it's a matter of finding the good thinking time setting (or play-out limit) for Leela so that the analysis progresses almost at the same speed as the game. If they play faster than Leela, then Leela will lag behind. I think a "thinking time" equal to the bio-yomi is probably fine. The players will progress faster than Leela during forced sequences, and Leela will catch-up when one player is taking a long time to play one move.

I need to make the review interface update automatically when more moves data become available. Currently, one have to open a new one to get the latest data.

Of course, the RSGF file is saved after each new analysed move, so it's still available for further study later.

johnsmith wrote:
In source files I changed direction of mouse scroll when viewing variations. Because I like normal scroll for going forward with moves. It's just a personal preference.
Ok, I will see if I can add a setting for this.

johnsmith wrote:
Is it possible to set 'real game sequence deepness'>=0 instead of just >=1? Because maybe someone doesn't want to see the next move on the left screen? I didn't know how to change this. The last version in which this worked was v0.8.
Should be easy to fix, I will check. But in that case, the left side goban becomes pretty useless no?

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 Post subject: Re: Announcing GoReviewPartner - v0.10 (supporting Leela Zer
Post #159 Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:47 pm 
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pnprog wrote:
Let say you are watching the 3rd game of the LG Cup final
Then Leela won't have a clue what's going on, especially if she's running on my old steam-powered peecee.

... but suppose you are playing me, and cheating by getting GRP/Leela to tell you what to do...

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 Post subject: Re: Announcing GoReviewPartner - v0.10 (supporting Leela Zer
Post #160 Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:50 am 
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I understand, thanks.
pnprog wrote:
But in that case, the left side goban becomes pretty useless no?
Not useless for those who use it :D Sometimes I need it (if I haven't seen the game previously), and sometimes I don't (if I already saw the game and now just reviewing). A good thing about GRP is the ability to set it the way you like it. But it should be your professional opinion to decide what a user gets out-of-the-box. :bow:

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