Fuseki question

[Twitchy Go]

If this puzzles you, it is very likely how you would respond to it has little to do with the outcome of the game. I think for beginners, the most important is to study life and death and joseki's. Fuseki does not really make much sense --- learn how stones wrestle with each other before learning how they stare each other.

I can only agree with this somewhat. I agree with your point about it not having a substantial impact on the game. However I find/found these theory tidbits incredibly valuable as I was moving up through the DDK. With this specific case all of these posts will likely give txcpa a calmer outlook when approached in such a fashion. If you get rattled in a game and go on tilt you are more likely to lose after all.
I can not agree with joseki being important as a beginner. At the most look up 33 invasion sequences. And 1 maybe 2 joseki resulting from approaches of various kinds. Other then that its not worth the effort yet.

[Buri]

Hi
like Twitchy I too can only agree to some extent with the downgrading of the significance of fuseki know how.
Good opening strategy not onl sets out massive territory and moyo, it also dictates what joseki to use and vice versa. I am currently working daily on the Guo Juan Opening Training lectures in which she is quite adamant that been relatively high Dan players in the west hit a stumbling block in their progress because their fuseki is not well trained enough.
Best wishes,
Buri

[fantans]

True, for Dan players, Fuseki does somewhat matter. But for K players, just remember some simple rules and take it easy. If they approach your corner early, just respond usual. Josekis are important because they teach you life and death, tesuji, and shape, all at the same time.

[Twitchy Go]

True, for Dan players, Fuseki does somewhat matter. But for K players, just remember some simple rules and take it easy. If they approach your corner early, just respond usual. Josekis are important because they teach you life and death, tesuji, and shape, all at the same time.

Ah I see why you advocate the study of joseki. I'd say that you'd get more mileage out of go problems for L&D/Tesuji. I can see joseki teaching shape though.
Also I think expecting a beginner to understand the meaning behind every move in a joseki is expecting to much. And that's how it would have to be to learn L&D/Tesuji/shape from studying joseki. I'd say that once someone can keep their groups safe for the most part, along with avoiding broken shape, getting sealed in and living small. They start to benefit considerably from direction of play and theory. Supplemented with alot of go problems for reading practice, as well as serious games with thinking time(using your thinking time is key). Joseki knowledge seems more dan crucial to me.

Edit: This could be a different things for different people issue though. I know I've been improving quite briskly without any attempt to learn numerous joseki. I've picked up a few, but only because they are ridiculously overplayed in the kyus of KGS
Although that could perhaps be because none of the kyus have studied joseki and only know those few?(I over exaggerate of course, but a few joseki show up alot.

[fantans]

Don't only play Joseki you understand --- play those you can remember. Over time, you will understand. I recommend the classic Dictionary of Basic Joseki by Ishida Yoshio. If you memorize the book, I guarantee you reach KGS 5d, at the least.

[EdLee]

I recommend the classic Dictionary of Basic Joseki by Ishida Yoshio.
If you memorize the book, I guarantee you reach KGS 5d, at the least.

Interesting. Just out of curiosity:
(1) Did you yourself memorize all 832 pages (265 + 303 + 264) of the English version?
(2) If yes to (1), how long did it take you (and how old were you) ?
(3) If yes to (1), did you reach KGS 5d at least with zero help outside of memorizing Ishida?
(4) If no to (1), then you must know at least one person who has memorized Ishida, and with no other help, reached KGS 5d?
(5) What exactly are you guaranteeing with?

[Bill Spight]

Don't only play Joseki you understand --- play those you can remember. Over time, you will understand. I recommend the classic Dictionary of Basic Joseki by Ishida Yoshio. If you memorize the book, I guarantee you reach KGS 5d, at the least.

I guarantee that you would reach KGS 15k.

[DJLLAP]

I recommend the classic Dictionary of Basic Joseki by Ishida Yoshio.
If you memorize the book, I guarantee you reach KGS 5d, at the least.

Interesting. Just out of curiosity:
(1) Did you yourself memorize all 832 pages (265 + 303 + 264) of the English version?
(2) If yes to (1), how long did it take you (and how old were you) ?
(3) If yes to (1), did you reach KGS 5d at least with zero help outside of memorizing Ishida?
(4) If no to (1), then you must know at least one person who has memorized Ishida, and with no other help, reached KGS 5d?
(5) What exactly are you guaranteeing with?

It seems that if joseki knowledge was the only prerequisite to 5d, then programing a 5d computer opponent would be quite easy, so this is obviously not the case.

If we broaden fantan's statement to mean that if you memorize the entire dictionary while actively applying the josekis in games and learning other higher concepts through these games, then I am willing to give it a little more weight. It is impossible for a human being to completely isolate himself from all aspects of the game except joseki, so I think it is fair to assume that additional influences and connections are being brought to play in this hypothetical scenario.

[txcpa]

Thanks for all of the responses, everyone. Interestingly, when I came across this situation again (opponent plays kakari on his first move), I played tenuki on one of the other corners, and within a few moves had a substantial moyo on the top and left sides. However, I ended up losing the game by resignation after a couple of successful invasions by the opponent, thereby destroying much of my potential territory. This was one of those games where I just played horribly, and got totally destroyed by a relatively equal opponent, despite the optimistic opening.

Go is one of those games in which I start to gain a bit of confidence, only to nearly have it destroyed after a bad game/s. Yet I keep coming back for more punishment It is very easy to get frustrated with this game. However, it seems like the fascination with it outweighs the frustration of the steep learning curve.

[fantans]

I recommend the classic Dictionary of Basic Joseki by Ishida Yoshio.
If you memorize the book, I guarantee you reach KGS 5d, at the least.

Interesting. Just out of curiosity:
(1) Did you yourself memorize all 832 pages (265 + 303 + 264) of the English version?
(2) If yes to (1), how long did it take you (and how old were you) ?
(3) If yes to (1), did you reach KGS 5d at least with zero help outside of memorizing Ishida?
(4) If no to (1), then you must know at least one person who has memorized Ishida, and with no other help, reached KGS 5d?
(5) What exactly are you guaranteeing with?

(1) I didn't. I only memorized a small part of it.
(2) Still it took quite some time but that is because I am old.
(3) I reached KGS 5d with (1) and a lot of help outside of it. But if I had to do it over from the start, I would just go ahead to memorize Ishida.
(4) No. I haven't seen many things (e.g. the very existence of you!) but I know they are true.
(5) ...

The bottom line: memorize things, parctice what you memorize, reflect on it! I know this is hard. But the point is that people tend to approach Go as an art, thinking they can learn the philosphy and then win the game. Really one needs to put in hard work into it. A mayo is nothing before you know how to defend it. There is no shortcut in life. This applies to Go too.