The view from above

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shapenaji
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The view from above

Post by shapenaji »

In the a rank thread I posted this:

Something else to consider is that there isn't just one type of person at any rank.

Someone might be playing extraordinarily strange moves, that I would know that I could punish, but which people at that level can't punish at all. I might give that person a much lower rank than a person who played slow but solid moves, because the latter didn't leave obvious ways for ME to kill them.

These two might actually be the same rank, or the first person might actually be stronger, but I'm going to view ranks through the lens of what I can punish.


And this reminded me of a situation that happened when I was at the World Mindsports games in Beijing, that I thought I'd share.

I made friends with a chinese businessman/enthusiast who was visiting the tournament. (He was my smoking buddy)

We played a number of games in the common area, and I won a good number of them. He seemed impressed that a westerner was able to keep pace with him, and invited me to come have a game against a professional friend of his. We went down to one of the game areas and he introduced me to the professional and one of the professional's students (a Tygem 9d).

(I have since forgotten the professional's name, the name was in Chinese and I had trouble with it then, now, 4 years later, it escapes me completely)

The Pro invited me to sit down and play him with a 3-stone handicap and completely blew me off the board. Afterward, I got a distinct impression of disgust from him. He asked me how long I had been playing, and I told him 6 years, he said "that long? People in China can get to where you are in 1 year"

He then started into a lesson on basic strategy, presenting the line of territory, the line of power, and the line of defeat... I listened, but I was embarrassed. I was aware of my friend standing by, shifting awkwardly, and while I wasn't about to embarrass him by storming away, I was internally seething. All I could think about was "Really? This is all you see in my play? Is this how you teach?"

Afterwards, he left and I sat down and had a game with his student. It turns out anger is a particularly effective motivator for me, because I played some of the best go I've ever played. I lost, but only because I played too fast on the killing move, and he survived. Afterwards, he complimented me on my game and I recovered my composure a bit.

I've thought about this moment from time to time since, as someone who got to my current rank pretty quickly (by American standards), I was completely unused to being effectively told that I had no potential.

But I wonder if my professional opponent had a biased view of the potential of players, based on the standard way that players learn in china. I feel like, at the Chinese 4d-5d level, most have learned to play in a specific way, because they're being taught by a system with a standardized set of proverbs. I have weaknesses that would have been eliminated early on.

No chinese 4d-5d would play some of the moves I play, they're above them. But at the same time, I have some strengths that compensate, and my record against folks at the Chinese 4d level is pretty good. The odd collection of strengths and weaknesses makes it difficult for someone to objectively quantify my rank.

Anyway, just an anecdote I thought I'd share.
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Post by EdLee »

shapenaji wrote:...I'm going to view ranks through the lens of... I...
Very common, and natural: we look at things through OUR OWN lens(es).
Your friend looked at you and your moves through his lens(es).
The pro looked at you and your moves through his lens(es).
You looked at them (and form your impressions of their thoughts and feelings) through your lens(es).

Wouldn't it be interesting if more people try to be others' shoes. :)
Your title, "The view from above," is quite on topic. :mrgreen:
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Re: The view from above

Post by FKonz »

Now I'm depressed, chinese people become 6 dan in 1 year? What do they do to improve? It seems that I wasted all my time, I'm still a beginner... :sad:
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Post by EdLee »

FKonz wrote:What do they do to improve?
One huge factor is age. It makes some difference if you start at 5. :)
Another huge factor is the environment. Do you start with pro teachers, or kyu teachers -- that also makes some difference.
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Re:

Post by xed_over »

EdLee wrote:Wouldn't it be interesting if more people try to be others' shoes. :)

Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you are a mile away from them and you have their shoes.
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Post by EdLee »

xed_over, I agree completely. :)
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Re: Re:

Post by shapenaji »

xed_over wrote:
EdLee wrote:Wouldn't it be interesting if more people try to be others' shoes. :)

Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you are a mile away from them and you have their shoes.


Unless you're criticizing them for an overabundance of foot fungus
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Re: The view from above

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

I recall a comment by Richard Feynman, about the advantages of having a different bag of tricks. He had learned many of his mathematical techniques on his own, so they were different than what his contemporaries had. Sometimes one of them would come to him with a physics problem that could not be solved by standard techniques. Often, with his different view of things, he could solve it.

Many of his peers regarded him as a genius just for that; but, as he explains, if they had come to him with problems that were most easily solved with standard techniques, he would have performed rather badly. They assumed that he knew the standard techniques, so when he solved using other techniques, they assumed that he understood more. Whereas he just understood differently. He just looked really good because he was only presented with problems that required a different bag of tricks.

I always regarded this as an unduly modest tale, for he probably understood a lot of the 'standard' techniques due to the people he worked with. But it is a great tale about the advantages of thinking for yourself.
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Re: The view from above

Post by SmoothOper »

The pro was probably upset from being woken at 6:00 am to start studying go that day. From what I can discern is that not very many people in China play Go, music, or participate in other hobbies, but when they do there is a very high expectation. Compared to westerners who like to have hobbies where they aren't expected to be the very best.
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Re: The view from above

Post by oren »

SmoothOper wrote:The pro was probably upset from being woken at 6:00 am to start studying go that day....


And here I expected you to complain on the placement of the three handicap stones. :)
Last edited by oren on Mon Oct 29, 2012 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The view from above

Post by Tami »

It could just be that that particular pro isn`t a very nice person.
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Re: The view from above

Post by shapenaji »

Tami wrote:It could just be that that particular pro isn`t a very nice person.


I'm aware of the cultural practice of allowing someone to save face. I didn't want to do anything that would make my friend look bad, for example. It did shock me a bit that the pro wasn't willing to extend the same courtesy.
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Re: The view from above

Post by Loons »

Oh, my Chinese pro was nicer!

You may be weak at go, but that is ok because you have one great quality.

Good-looking!
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Re: The view from above

Post by snorri »

It reminds me of this scene from "Planet of the Apes (1968)"

HONORIUS
He can reason? With the Tribunal's permission,
let me expose this hoax by direct examination.

PRESIDENT
Proceed. But don't turn this hearing into a
farce.

Honorius crosses to the defendant's table and favors Taylor with an
evil smile.

HONORIUS
Tell the court, Bright Eyes -- what is
the second Article of Faith?

TAYLOR
I admit, I know nothing of your culture.

HONORIUS
Of course he doesn't know our culture -
because he cannot think.
(to Taylor)
Tell us why all apes are created equal.

TAYLOR
Some apes, it seems, are more equal than
others.

HONORIUS
Ridiculous. That answer is a contradiction
in terms. Tell us, Bright Eyes, why do men
have no souls? What is the proof that a
divine spark exists in the simian brain?



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Re: The view from above

Post by hyperpape »

FKonz wrote:Now I'm depressed, chinese people become 6 dan in 1 year? What do they do to improve? It seems that I wasted all my time, I'm still a beginner... :sad:
shapenaji wrote:The Pro invited me to sit down and play him with a 3-stone handicap and completely blew me off the board. Afterward, I got a distinct impression of disgust from him. He asked me how long I had been playing, and I told him 6 years, he said "that long? People in China can get to where you are in 1 year"
Well, it is true that people in the East Asian countries can get astonishingly strong in very little time, the story makes it sound like he didn't assess Shapenaji as a 6 dan.
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