#171 Hyperpape vs. illluck

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hyperpape
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Re: #171 Hyperpape vs. illluck

Post by hyperpape »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm88
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | . . O . . X O O O O O X O O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X X X X X O O X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . , . X . . . , . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . O X . X . . . . . . . . X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . X 1 X O O O . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . O O X O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X . . O . . O X X O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . . . X X . X X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I don't see a way around this.
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illluck
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Re: #171 Hyperpape vs. illluck

Post by illluck »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm88
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | . . O . . X O O O O O X O O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X X X X X O O X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . , . X . . . , . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . O X . X . . . . . . . 2 X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . X 1 X O O O . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . O O X O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X . . O . . O X X O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . . . X X . X X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Hopefully I'm not missing something obvious, but the loose ladder doesn't work, and I don't see working nets/ladders either.
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hyperpape
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Re: #171 Hyperpape vs. illluck

Post by hyperpape »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm88
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | . . O . . X O O O O O X O O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X X X X X O O X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . , . X . . . , . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 O X X X . . |
$$ | . O X . X . . . . . . 3 X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . X O X O O O . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . O O X O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X . . O . . O X X O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . . . X X . X X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Trigger if you play as above:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm88
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | . . O . . X O O O O O X O O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X X X X X O O X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . , . X . . . , . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 O X X X . . |
$$ | . O X . X . . . . . . 3 X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . 5 X O X O O O . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . O O X O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X . . O . . O X X O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . . . X X . X X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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illluck
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Re: #171 Hyperpape vs. illluck

Post by illluck »

Trigger accepted.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm88
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | . . O . . X O O O O O X O O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X X X X X O O X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . , . X . . . , . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 6 X O X X X . . |
$$ | . O X . X . . . . . . O X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . O X O X O O O . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . O O X O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X . . O . . O X X O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . . . X X . X X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Feels like white should have played atari once more before coming back to capture (though my instinct says that white shouldn't capture at all and instead play from the othr group.
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The Intrepid
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Re: #171 Hyperpape vs. illluck

Post by The Intrepid »

Looks like White should have first exchanged 3 for 4 before playing 5.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | . . O . . X O O O O O X O O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X X X X X O O X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X b . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . , . X . . . , . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . a 4 O O . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 O X X X . . |
$$ | . O X . X . . . . . . 1 X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . 5 X O X O O O . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . O O X O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X . . O . . O X X O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . . . X X . X X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
That way, "a" would not be sente for Black, so White could still hope to play the ladder breaker at "b" at some point.
Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.
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hyperpape
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Re: #171 Hyperpape vs. illluck

Post by hyperpape »

First thought: if I capture, Black can't atari.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm94 B97 takes the ko
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | . . O . . X O O O O O X O O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X X X X X O O X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . , . X . . . , . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 3 X X O X X X . . |
$$ | . O X . X . . . . 5 2 O X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . O X O X O O O . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . 1 O O X O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X . . O . . O X X O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . . . X X . X X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm94
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | . . O . . X O O O O O X O O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X X X X X O O X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . , . X . . . , . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 2 X X O X X X . . |
$$ | . O X . X . . . . . . O X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . O X O X O O O . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . 1 O O X O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X . . O . . O X X O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . . . X X . X X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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hyperpape
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Re: #171 Hyperpape vs. illluck

Post by hyperpape »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm94 W98 connects
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | . . O . . X O O O O O X O O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X X X X X O O X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . , . X . . . , . 9 8 . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . O O . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 7 X X O X X X . . |
$$ | . O X . X . . . . . 1 O X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . O X O X O O O . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . 6 4 3 O O X O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X . . O . 2 O X X O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . . . X X . X X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
If I connect, there is the atari and squeeze, but White gets pleasant shenanigans. I believe Black 101 leaves Black dead.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm94 W98 Connects
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | . . O . . X O O O O O X O O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X X X X X O O X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . , . X . . . , 9 . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . O O . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 7 X X O X X X . . |
$$ | . O X . X . . . . . 1 O X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . O X O X O O O . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . 6 4 3 O O X O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X . . O . 2 O X X O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . . . X X . X X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I believe this Black 101 leaves Black with a way out, but I've exhausted my tolerance for diagrams.
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hyperpape
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Re: #171 Hyperpape vs. illluck

Post by hyperpape »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm88
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | . . O . . X O O O O O X O O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X X X X X O O X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . , . X . . . , . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O X X X . . |
$$ | . O X . X . . . . . . O X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . O X O X O O O . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . 7 O O X O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X . . O . . O X X O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . . . X X . X X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
There is crazy stuff, and I never managed to analyze it all, but I feel better doing this.
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illluck
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Re: #171 Hyperpape vs. illluck

Post by illluck »

Will definitely have to think a bit more about this one, coming home tired due to work. I will respond before the end of this week.
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hyperpape
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Re: #171 Hyperpape vs. illluck

Post by hyperpape »

No worries.
It's not as if I was doing wonderfully before, but the situation is looking really grim. I think it's at least worth letting this fight get clearer, but I don't think there's a lot of hope for White.
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hyperpape
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Re: #171 Hyperpape vs. illluck

Post by hyperpape »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm88
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | . . O . . X O O O O O X O O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X X X X X O O X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . , . X . . . , . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 8 X X O X X X . . |
$$ | . O X . X . . . . . . O X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . O . O X O O O . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . O O O X O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X . . O . . O X X O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . . . X X . X X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
It's extremely unclear what I would play at this point. There's a very high branching factor.

I wonder if he's counting. I think that the forcing moves that White gets will be very nice if Black doesn't play at :b95:
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illluck
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Re: #171 Hyperpape vs. illluck

Post by illluck »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm88 Prisoners: :b1:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | . . O . . X O O O O O X O O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X X X X X O O X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . , . X . . . , . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 8 . X X O X X X . . |
$$ | . O X . X . . . . . . O X X O X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . O . O X O O O . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . O O O X O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . X . . O . . O X X O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . . . X X . X X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I'm surprised that white is confident enough to think that either he can live inside after giving me a move or he doesn't need to live to win. My move might be a bit overconfident, but I'm not seeing a clear way to white life and other moves leave other weaknesses in addition to being smaller.
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hyperpape
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Re: #171 Hyperpape vs. illluck

Post by hyperpape »

I don't yet understand why this move would be better than the simple stretch I pointed out.
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hyperpape
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Re: #171 Hyperpape vs. illluck

Post by hyperpape »

I know I play incredibly slowly regardless, but this week has been incredibly busy. I should be able to make a move Monday or Tuesday.
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illluck
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Re: #171 Hyperpape vs. illluck

Post by illluck »

Don't worry about it at all - I've been pretty busy too so my responses will be slow too :)
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