Twitchy's Corner

jts · Post by **jts** » Sat May 12, 2012 10:47 am

Just one note on some ambiguities in the concept of broken shape.

1. The shape that results from ignoring a peep at a basic jump.
2. The shape that cuts one player's groups of stones cleanly apart without similarly cutting his opponent's.

In the case of the keima these two conceptions lead to the same conclusion, but in the case of the one-space jump they lead to two slightly different conceptions of when the shape is broken. The first conception suggests that this is a broken shape:

The second conception suggests this is the broken shape:

A further point, however, is that whether a shape counts as broken depends on the local situation and what sort of connection B had between his stones. This might be obvious with the bamboo joint: compared to the one point jump, "peeping" the bamboo joint and then "pushing through" is useless and does not break the shape, although locally it looks the same as peeping and pushing through the one point jump. I bring this up because the huge number of stones surrounding W's peep in this example will affect our judgment of whether the shape is broken. An example more true to the spirit of the question might involve two strong groups connected over a distance by a series of 1-pt jumps.

Twitchy Go · Post by **Twitchy Go** » Sat May 12, 2012 11:33 am

Interesting, jts. That's some stuff for me to think about.

SoDesuNe · Post by **SoDesuNe** » Sat May 12, 2012 12:25 pm

On a related note:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Dosaku (W) vs. Chitetsu (B) $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . X . O O X O X . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . X O X X . X | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . e . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . . X c . . . . . . . . . X O . O . . | $$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . X X . X . | $$ | . . . , . d . . . , . . . O X , . X . | $$ | . 9 . . 8 5 b . . . . . . . X O O O . | $$ | . 4 3 7 6 2 O . . . . O O . X O X O . | $$ | . 0 X 1 . X . . O . O X . O X X X X . | $$ | . . X O . . X . . O . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . X X . X . O . O X X X . | $$ | . X O O . O O O X , . X X X X O . O . | $$ | . X X O X . O X O O X . . . X O . X O | $$ | . X O O . . O X . . . . . O X O . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Now, is

a bad play since after the sequence to :b8:

, White has a broken Keima between :w5:

and

?
Furthermore: Black is forced to escape ("Squeezing Out the Toothpaste"?) while White is induced to defend a cut ("Thank-You"-move) and can both surround Black's lower left side group and attack Black's upper left side group with the sequence from 'a' to 'e' ("Make Territory while Attacking") while Black gets a Ponnuki in the center ("A Ponnuki is worth 30 points").

How to judge?

White won the game with 5 points. There was no Komi.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Sat May 12, 2012 12:32 pm

SoDesuNe wrote:How to judge?

Exactly.

Continue to play, study, and review.

Twitchy Go · Post by **Twitchy Go** » Sat May 12, 2012 1:33 pm

Thanks you SoDesuNe

Twitchy Go · Post by **Twitchy Go** » Wed May 16, 2012 9:21 pm

I have made my first inroad into the single digit kyus. After winning this game I ranked up to 9k. I hope to not fall back to 10 kyu, and I have won a few games since then so that would hopefully be hard to do now. Any comments are appreciated, but I am posting this game more because it seems the kind of thing to put in my study journal. A milestone and all that.

Boidhre · Post by **Boidhre** » Thu May 17, 2012 1:20 am

Congrats on 9k!

Twitchy Go · Post by **Twitchy Go** » Thu May 17, 2012 5:29 pm

Boidhre wrote:Congrats on 9k!

Thank you Boidhre

EiggHead · Post by **EiggHead** » Fri May 18, 2012 9:59 am

Congrats Twitchy ...

We are trending in the same range. I'm up for playing if you ever see me online.

Cheers

Twitchy Go · Post by **Twitchy Go** » Fri May 18, 2012 10:12 am

I'm game egghead. I'll buddy you when I get home :salute:

Twitchy Go · Post by **Twitchy Go** » Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:41 pm

This post is just an update on my go in the past 6 months or so. If your interested read on, or skip to the next post which is more study journaly.

Hello again L19x19. I seem to have descended back into lurker status over the past few months, something I am ashamed of as it left both my malkovitch opponents hanging. That said I would like to be a commenting, if not incredibly active member of this wonderful community. In an attempt to do so I'm going to try to force myself to keep my little corner of L19x19 moving, in the hopes that as I get used to commenting in my study journal I'll be more likely to post in other threads. :tmbup:

Since my last post about 6 months ago, I have moved up to about 6k(I hope I'm trending up right now). Although I've got to play less over the summer and school year than I had hoped, so it doesn't seem like I'll make my goal of 1d in 1 year.Based off my KGS profile my dead line is January 7th of the new year, so it might be doable. I'm a college student after all and with no classwork over about an entire month of break... well I'll see.

And happy day there is a Go club at my University(I had been a bit worried I'd need to get one started myself), although not a very large one. It's been great to have access to a 2d for the semester. I've learned a fair bit from our games. Unfortunately he graduates in about a week now, which will leave me as the big fish of the Go club. :cry:

I've noticed that I'm beginning to remember my games well enough to recreate them as a post game review.

I'm not perfect yet, but it means my moves had a good reason behind them.

I've also hit on my preferred method to bringing new players into the game. I play a 5stone handicap 9x9 game. Whether the beginner wins or loses basically comes down to if I can break their shape or not(I'm learning EdLee!!!). I prefer if they lose the first time(But, yay for them if they win), then I can explain why broken shape is bad and we play again. They should win the rematch. I think getting to see immediate improvement is good, and it lets me play as sharply as I can safely.

And those Joseki... whoa are they interesting. I'd never really looked at them to indepth because knowing joseki makes you two stones weaker and all that. But I spent an incredibly interesting hour+ going over why a few joseki(taken from 21st century Joseki) were in fact joseki with the club 2dan yesterday. It was an interesting exercise in reading, shape, tesujis and other such fun things. I think I'm probably going to add this kind of exhaustive joseki examining to my study routine simply because it is so fun. (And who knows I might get to use my knowledge of why x move is bad in a game someday :mrgreen:

)

Twitchy Go · Post by **Twitchy Go** » Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:01 pm

I've been exploring an opening as black recently. The position sort of relies on W denying the diagonal fuseki with a 44 point. Ergo I haven't gotten much practice in. The games I have gotten to play have been fun however. Here is the basic set up.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c My current experiment $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The idea behind 3 is to try to bait W into approaching instead of taking the empty corner. Of course if W does take the empty corner I have a wealth of standard fall backs: Orthodox, mini/micro chinese. My idea in this opening is to prevent W from creating any large scale development in a quasi shusaku fuseki style(The rotatating komuki in 3 corners).
I have the low chinese of enclosing to look forward to in the top if W follows up in the lower right, and I can keep sente.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Common continuation $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 8 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 4 7 9 . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . 2 3 X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 5 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The taisha is the most common follow up I've seen, I don't know any of the super complex varients and letting W get a wall seems bad so I've been playing the ladder variation. Fortunately the ladder always works for me if we're playing this line. I ignore an approach on the top 3-4 to respond to his initial approach, so the taisha means he followed up right away.

I've found this opening limits whites developmental options and usually ends in yose, something I feel strong at.

I'm very interested in comments, questions, suggestions or outright criticisms!

skydyr · Post by **skydyr** » Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:06 pm

One reason that learning joseki improperly can hurt you is that it can shut down your intuition regarding a situation. You can start playing joseki because they are joseki, but without knowing why. This can mean that you play the joseki correctly, but make extra unnecessary moves due to supporting stones, or pick one that doesn't work well with your current stones across the board, for example. The way you were looking at joseki is the right way to do it, with a reason for every move. If you know the reason, you can check if that reason applies to the situation, and have a better framework for making moves outside the joseki that better fit the game.

Also, your opponents won't necessarily parrot a joseki back at you, so it's good to know why a move is played, as it helps you understand if and how to punish. Sometimes, just leaving it alone is punishment enough, as your opponent will need to fix later, after all.

emeraldemon · Post by **emeraldemon** » Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:21 pm

This isn't exactly the same, but you can still play that 3-4 if white takes the other corner, and sometimes white will approach with 4:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c similar early approach $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Of course, you can't rely on the ladder variation now. But the games I saw in GoGoD white didn't choose the taisha, favoring something like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c pincer $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Twitchy Go · Post by **Twitchy Go** » Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:17 pm

emeraldemon wrote:This isn't exactly the same, but you can still play that 3-4 if white takes the other corner, and sometimes white will approach with 4:

$$c similar early approach
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c similar early approach $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Of course, you can't rely on the ladder variation now. But the games I saw in GoGoD white didn't choose the taisha, favoring something like this:

$$c pincer
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c pincer $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

That follow up diagram looks like an interesting board to resume play from

.
In terms of an opening your diagrams feel completely different, at least in intent, to me. Black 3 in your diagram is simply a good move that lets White decide to approach or take the last corner. I'm trying to be more active with Black 3. As I understand it, White opening at D4 in response to Q 16 is to prevent a diagonal fuseki. Or another way to look at it is that white wants to play a parallel fuseki, perhaps a framework focused one. Black 3 at R4 offers white a juicy approach on the corner if Black is allowed to limit whites ability to build up a framework. My intent with experimenting with this opening is to actively create a board that feels like a diagonal fuseki game, even if white denies the diagonal route with move 2. That's the intent with my limited theory at least.
White could of course ignore, but I know I would definitely think for awhile before choosing White 4. The corner would not be my automatic response. As it might be if W doesn't mind playing against Chinese or orthodox lines.

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